A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
As we await the final report from the Iraq Survey Group we have seen and heard much debate over it’s contents, none of which have yet to be made public. While we “know” none of it, we have already decided where we stand on the tenets of its final recommendations.
Before it becomes official, I felt it necessary to share with you here a very different “Iraq Survey Group”; one a group of Gold Star families assembled, and one whose opinions hold more weight for me than any from a group of aging politicians in expensive suits with nothing to lose and everything to gain.
I honor and defer to the legacy of the fallen far more than to those with no personal attachment to being wrong.
Over at Move America Forward, you will see extensive coverage of this story. It is not historic that little has been carried by the main stream media, however the idea of families of fallen Heroes going to the lands where their children sacrificed their lives for their countries gives “historic” a whole new meaning.
The Move America Forward group describes the initial delegation to Iraq this way:
It is a history making trip – the first coordinated delegation of families of fallen soldiers traveling to Iraq. On Wednesday our delegation visited one of Saddam Hussein’s prisons following Tuesday’s visit to one of his concentration camps. Our delegation joined the people of Iraq in celebrating the GUILTY verdict handed down to Saddam Hussein. They’ve met the President of Iraqi Kurdistan, the Prime Minister of Iraqi Kurdistan as well as the Minister of the Interior, the Finance Minister as well as the former Minister of Human Rights. The trip comes on the heels of news reports that Saddam Hussein was developing a nuclear weapons program immediately prior to the commencement of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Never before has such a coordinated trip of Gold Star Family members to Iraq taken place.
Never before indeed. While I won’t bother to raise the obvious question of why we didn’t hear more about this on the nightly news, I DO find it more than a little curious that the membership of the politically appointed Iraq Survey Group has no such membership on it.
While we suffered the pains of the 9/11 Commission’s work and the “attached at the hip” oversight by families of the victims from THAT awful and horrific day, no such partnership seemed worthy in this case; no personal association with or attachment to the impacts and implications of the final reports on these families appeared relevant to the work of the Baker Commission.
The Gold Star Families’ Final Report introduces itself this way:
The Gold Star Families Iraq Survey Group is releasing this report to help enhance the debate and discussions concerning the United States’ commitment to achieve success with the mission of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
The authors of this report have all traveled to Iraq since the commencement of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Seven of the individuals are known as “Gold Star Familiesâ€? as they have lost a son in the war effort. Two of the individuals, Gold Star Father Joe Johnson and Marine Reservist John Ubaldi, served in Operation Iraqi Freedom themselves. Additionally, group member Melanie Morgan led a delegation to Iraq in 2005 where she had the opportunity to speak with both U.S. and Iraqi military leaders.
It is not by accident that the majority of this group is comprised of men and women who lost their child in Operation Iraqi Freedom. They are presenting their findings and recommendations to ensure that the United States adopts a policy in Iraq that will enhance American security that their children fought to preserve. Their children believed in the importance of the mission in Iraq, and so too do these parents.
This report is written without any attempt to cater to any political ideology, political party, or government interest. It is written solely to help ensure that victory for the United States mission in Iraq is indeed achieved.
The authors of this report believe that winning the war in Iraq – not “solving the problems� of Iraq – is essential to the United States commitment to the war against terrorism. Defeat in Iraq, which we define as an immediate or near-immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, would have devastating geopolitical consequences, embolden Islamic terrorist groups and send the message that the United States lacks the will to see through its commitment to defeat those who employ terrorism, bloodshed, fear and violence to advance oppression and tyranny.
Please make every effort to read the whole of this report. In it you will find much of what has been suggested in many quarters, and goes beyond the reach of the political wrangling we have seen over the past two years as some would worry more about unseating the majority powers in Congress and usurp the power and authority of the Commander in Chief who’s job it is to prosecute this war in Iraq and across the wider front of the war on terrorism, than concern themselves with doing what is necessary to stand behind their Sailors, Soldiers, Airmen, and Marines to help ensure they actually WIN it..
I offer here the recommendations from this, in my opinion, MORE relevant Iraq Survey Group:
Communicate to the world community our continued dedication
to the mission in Iraq. Our nation must make it abundantly clear that the United States will
never abandon the war against terrorism, and that includes insuring that Iraq will never again be
a threat to our security interests. All Americans, regardless of political affiliation or ideology,
must stand united in our commitment to SUCCEED in Iraq.Increase the responsibility of Iraqi’s to ensure their own security. We believe one of the most important priorities in Iraq is to accelerate the pace that American authorities are transferring responsibility for security to Iraqi authorities to ensure their own peace. We would encourage the President to require that the Iraqi government assume greater responsibility for maintaining the peace. American forces will be vital to maintaining logistical and support functions, but securing the peace must be a burden shifted more quickly to Iraqi forces. This will reduce U.S. troop exposure to violence.
Adjust our tactics in Iraq to increase effectiveness of the mission. While we must not dilute our commitment to winning the war on terrorism, we must also be willing to adjust our tactics to most effectively achieve American objectives in the region. We have heard from a number of military commanders who feel their hands are sometimes tied by a war policy that has been focused too much on top-down management designed to confront a conventional military force.
Give Iraqi Parliament Leaders Ultimatum: Stop Sponsoring Militias or Exit the Green Zone U.S. and Iraqi authorities have learned that a number of militias involved in the current sectarian
violence are sponsored and/or supported by members of the new Iraqi parliament. In fact, in a number of instances, these competing militias have used the Islamic terrorist cells still operating in Iraq to advance their own agendas. It is bad enough that these militia groups would target and kill their own fellow countrymen as part of their struggle for power in the post-Saddam Iraq. However, it is unacceptable that U.S. and Coalition forces should suffer injury and death when many of these groups operate with the explicit blessing of the newly elected government that is responsible for building a secure Iraq. Increasingly some Iraqis believe that Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, a Shiite, is himself too lax in regards to the violence conducted by Shiite militia groups. It is easy for Iraqi politicians to offer covert support, leadership and sponsorship of violent militia groups when the political leaders themselves usually live and work within the relative safety of the Green Zone. These members of Parliament and other political leaders do not have to face the hellish violence that they have instigated and/or tolerated.Develop and maintain a long-term major U.S. military presence in Iraqi Kurdistan We strongly recommend developing and maintaining a major U.S. military presence in Iraqi Kurdistan – the secure Kurdish region of the country as a stabilizing influence in the region. This region comprises Iraq’s three most northern provinces: Erbil, Sulaymaniyah and Duhok. Northern Iraq is already rapidly developing as a peaceful democracy with gratitude towards and affection for the United States. As victims of Saddam Hussein’s “Anfalâ€? genocide, Iraqi Kurds are committed to building a new future that is free of violence and oppression. The Kurdish peshmerga provides several layers of security to the region. Vehicles entering Iraqi Kurdistan from the rest of the country must pass through six to seven armed checkpoints before they can traverse through the civilian population centers. They have brought freedom from
violence because of their vigorous efforts.
This report has much more detail, and much to consider. Two senences that are quite telling are there:
The United States cannot abandon the mission in Iraq. Failure is not an option, for the consequences will extend far beyond Iraq and imperil U.S. interests for years to come.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Read the storyIraq Survey Group Takes Washington by Storm over at FreeRepublic for even more coverage of this groups’ work, and decide for yourself where you want to come down on this issue.
I already have.
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haystack
While I await the completion of Mullah’s IP being blocked, and though I would LOVE to talk about who is killing innocent women and children every day in Iraq, I will only say my post speaks for itself.
Lauren
Haystack,
Even though I agree your post speaks for itself I am tired of hearing about how many innocent women and children are being killed by our military.
Our military aren’t killing any. The insurgents are killing their own people. Better yet they are recruiting people to be suicide bombers and they are killing their own people.
MilMom
I believe I have taken ya’ll to task already on you propensity to overlook the Will of The People as defined in our Consitution.
Haystack says:
usurp: to seize and hold (a position, office, power, etc.) by force or without legal right:
Besides you terrible choice of words is an unforgivable misunderstanding of the concept of checks and balances, again, as clearly defined in our Constitution.
I’m not going to go into greater detail here because I know it falls of deaf ears. I will only suggest, that when it suits your argument, you claim to be patriots, and when it comes to self-interest, you shelve your patriotism and jump strait into militarism.
WHAT war on terror? What
Show me the report.
mudkitty
Why one group of gold star parents vs another? What’s that about?
Dragooner
Have to agree with MilMom, the majority of this Gold Star group business is hardcore partisan…and completely full of BS as sited by MilMom above…but….
The idea of repositioning troops into Kurdistan (where they are well liked) is a smashing good idea! The Kurds location is ideal to allow the US military to act as a power broker in the region. It would also act as a forward base allowing us keep a handle on the potential of major terrorist training camps. Plus the Kurdish population would greatly benefit from US troops and have a high respect for the US for having deposed Sadam. (Something which isn’t carrying us very far in the Shiite regions).
The only problem would be getting the Turks to agree to a permanent US presence in Kurdistan thereby defacto legitimizing the Kurdsih state. However, if we give them a nice cut off the oil flowing out of Kirkuk maybe this could be made to work to allow us to move supplies into and oil out of the region…something the Turks are probably not all that interested in, though if they could be convinced?
God knows we owe it to the Kurds after letting them get slaughtered by any and all in the past wars we’ve sponsored.
However, if we don’t reposition and the idiot-in-chief keeps on staying the course and our troops keep getting killed on a daily basis this option will not be politically feasable for more than a couple of months at most.
MilMom
Thank for the h/t Dragon.
I would caution only one think. The one and only goal Osama bin-Laden has every claimed, is to drive US military off of Muslim land.
The terrorist attacks began after we stationed 5000 troops in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War.
Do you really think its a good idea to piss them off more by stationing more troops in their land?
MilMom
btw: Will someone please point me to the reports that Saddam Hussein was developing a nuclear weapons program immediately prior to the commencement of Operation Iraqi Freedom. ?
MilMom
So, may I assume there is STILL NO PROOF Saddam represented a threat?
In summary, we had no proff Saddam had WMD before the war, and even after occupying Ira for 3 and a half years, we STILL have no evidence.
How much longer must we be divided and misguided by liars and those who would shrill for them? Shame, shame, shame!
Lauren
What you can assume is that people have lifes other then sitting here all day and waiting to pounce on peoples opinions. People work, people have children to take care of and other responsibilites.
I feel so bad for you that you obviously have NO life what so ever. Thats what the shame, shame, shame is!!!!
haystack
little wound up today, there, milmom?
what war on terror? hmm, I could have SWORN we were fighting one…
will of the people? oh-50 percent of the 40 percent that voted..which by my math equals what, 20 percent of the people…THAT will of the people?
The constitution you are waving at us allows for us to have differing opinions…and I believe mine was quietly stated while you are currently flinging the shrill.
I find you a fascinating member of this community. Please, educate me on my selective patriotism veiled under my sociopathic partisanship…please do.
MilMom
Haystack,
Turns out, at least from what I’ve benn reading for about 3 years, is that there is no war on terrorism per say. It’s hyperbole. Use of the word war in this context is more like the war on poverty.
Like the war on terror, the war on poverty has no identifiable enemy, and the process of fighting the war is not a function of the military. Certainly killing people who dislke the fact that we occupy their country is no way to fight terrorism.
Best selling books have been written on this farce. By contrast, very little has been written describing the war on terror, because it is a talking point. There is no plan, strategy, budget, congressional committee, just political talking points created by Karl Rove.
The War on Terror will cease to exist after this president.
btw: Your logic on the will of the people is a bit corrupt.
Now, I’m begging you and Lauren, lets deal with some facts here. Where is the report quoted in the top post? Where is the evidence, facts?
Lauren
Sorry to tell you but by somebody writing a book doesnt prove anything in it is fact.
I also notice that Sue has asked on a few occassions does “Mil” stand for Militia??? I do not now or ever see you as a Military Mom.
haystack
When someone tells me there is no war on terror; that it is a Rovian symbolism or euphemism, I consider the argument closed.
Whatever brings you to the notion this is just political posturing and not a real conflict, it will not matter what further arguments I offer.
There is plenty of material out there that suggests differently milmom, but never mind…I was wrong-would you like a retraction of the post?
MilMom
Lauren,
Since you apparently rarely stray from your tribe, I’m going to let you in on somehting everybody else knows. A very highly respected linguist named Goerge Lakoff wrote a book called Dont think of an Elephant. The book quickly became the bible for those of us who felt the Karl Rove was exploiting the gullible nature of a large portion of Americans.
The book exposed the techniques the Right uses to crush any argument they don’t like. You and Bill ORielly are masters of a technique known as shooting the messenger.
You may disparage anyone with a message you don’t like, but you also must know that its old and tired and forces most people to put you in a category of people who cannot learn new things, operate in a complex environment, solve problems, benefit from education and essentially contribute anything a meaning to society.
Now I’m not calling you a name here, and I never have and I never will, but another name for this type of organism I’m thinking of is parasite.
So you can spout your brilliant symantic all day long in the comfort of your friends, but know that such predicatable and now known to be failed tactics do not reflect well on this blog.
It is quite hard not to notice you contribute zero to any conversation. You retain no facts, you have no imagination, you cannot defend yourself with anything of interest to anyone. In short you offer nothing but the warmth of you loyal approval. My dog does that for me.
MilMom
As for you Haystack. Much of the above goes for you too. Are you really going to just say argument closed because I suggested you resemble Rove in your tactics? Thats about as helpful and intelligent as your other useless comment about plenty of other material out there so nah, nah, nah.
Is this par for the course here. Nobody really knows WHY they believe anything but they are just really sure they have a right to it?
The gaping lack of substance on this blog has given me a MUCH better understanding of how we got into this mess in the first place.
You guys wouldn’t last a minute on a progressive blog. I dare ya.
One more time. Does anyone out there the backbone to produce the evidence of Saddams nukuler program?
haystack
Well, let’s see. You suggest that this Lakoff book “quickly became the bible for those of us who felt the Karl Rove was exploiting the gullible nature of a large portion of Americans.”
You are predisposed to believe that which supports your cause every bit as much as those of us who support our own. Lakoff is no more a proven expert on the national mind control created and managed by Rove (the Wizard of OZ) than any other anti-Bush, anti-Republican movement. Your strawmen and pointy sticks, and your “everyone knows” clap trap are just crap…at least as much as anyone else’s opinion may be.
Your denigration of your opponents in a debate are classic liberal modus operandi. If you yell loud enough, stamp your feet enough, say or do horrific and insulting enough antics, you shut down the opposing view and not only declare victory but decry the rightness of your claims. This doesn’t make it so, but it makes you feel you have reigned supreme and have taken the day..well bully for you.
I offered to consider the argument closed because we will next fall into the same crap that we have been through for 3 years now.
We “thought” he had them. EVERYONE thought he had them, including your party and your god-like savior the philanderer and adulterer William Jefferson Clinton. The CTC group continues to translate and declassify documents that indicate he had them right up until we invaded. We know we were told to stand down from invading mosques, and were instead missioned to stabilize the retreating Ba’athists, keep the museums and banks safe, and restore order as soon as possible.
We were told to stand down as we observed truck after truck fleeing in the night over the Syrian border because we did not want to open a war front with Syria, draw in Iran, and escalate tensions with the Turks. We also knew the Kurds would be slaughtered if we allowed any cross border hostilities on the 3 major borders that were just waiting for an excuse to exact their own “pig pile” against their enemy du jour, so we allowed shipments into Syria and Iran, knowing full well the contents were suspect.
We faced a greater insurgent response than we planned for (yes-Bush’s fault) and ultimately under Rumsfeld missioned the Soldiers on the ground away from WMD search efforts and on to stabilization activities; a mission that continues to day.
You, however need to justify your anti-Bush rhetoric with the hindsight you have been afforded in the continued lack of physical evidence. You can sit cozy in the truthful statements you make here because you know full well we don’t have them in our possession. You don’t care that your side shared the belief they existed BEFORE you decided being against the war may improve your chances of regaining the majority power on the backs of the SOLDIERS who are only doing their jobs.
Well, “those of us who believe” are clearly not allowed the same freedoms to our opinions as your side…ourss are subjective while yours are currently “factual”, so again…bully for you.
What fascinates me is your motivation for even being here…judging from your website I don’t quite get that. Phew, but you must get tired.
Suffice it to say I will be more than glad to argue with you all day long, but there is little point to it….really-why don’t you go back where you came from and gather ’round that enlightened circle of friends you hang with. There’s nothing here but us kooks and fools and dolts that believe supporting the soldier means supporting what they do as well.
MilMom
Oh Hatstack, My saying the Lakoff book was our bible was not an attempt to validate him. Why would I need to. All I said was he pointed out your tactic of attacking the messenger. There is nothing to believe or disbelieve. Either you attack the messenger instead of the message, or you do not. Its not a question of who Lakoff is. Whew, Are ya following along here?
Second, Are you suggesting that no one including me and 128 Congress People, UN inspectors, and other NGO WERE NOT SAYING: WE DOUBLT YOUR INTELLIGENCE, WE DO NOT SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF WMD before we invaded Iraq?
If you are, just let me know. I CAN EASILY PROVE TO YOU I AND PLENTY OF OTHER PEOPLE WERE SAYING SADDAM DID NOT HAVE WMD.
On Sunday, March 16, three days before the war began the Washington Post published an article on page 16 called U.S. Lacks Specifics on Banned Arms in which was stated
Leonard Downie Jr., the Post%u2019s executive editor, later expressed regret that the paper did not give more prominence to stories that were skeptical of the administration%u2019s WMD claims. Prominence, not that they weren’t there. They just buried them in the back of the paper.
Here’s the deal Hatstack. I can prove all day with exisiting references and sources that lots of people were SCREAMING that there was no evidence of WMD and I will upon request. I don’t think you are man enough to admit I am right and you are wrong.
You may accuse others of hindsite on Bush, but not me, and not a lot of others. But it is good to see your loyalty to the coke head frat boy with the fake Texas accent is beginning to abate somewhat.
MilMom
On the House floor more than four years ago, Rep. Barbara T. Lee (D-Calif.) told colleagues:
That information, she said, came from material that then-CIA Director George J. Tenet had provided to the Senate.
Either you people werent paying attention at the time (becuase you wanted to go to war) OR you wanted to go to war.
Either way, it was the media that down played any objection to what the adminsitration was saying. You know it, I know it, and the whole world knows it.
So Hatstack, don’t you EVER suggest everybody thought Saddam had WMD. Nothing could be more dishonest.
rmwarnick
From SourceWatch:
“Move America Forward (MAF) is a conservative organization founded and headed by California Republican activists, talk show hosts and staff members of the public relations firm Russo Marsh & Rogers, which has strong ties to the Republican Party.”
Wikipedia has more. MAF is a GOP astroturf group, as we all know.
haystack
see, this is fun, ain’t it?
A little principled dialog, intelligent exchange, sharing of facts on basis not emotion or bias, and you have constructive dialog…too bad it isn’t here.
Coke head frat boy…fake Texas accent…well done.
And I am very proud that you are among such way excellent company to be part of “28 Congress People, UN inspectors, and other NGO”…again…bully for you.
Obviously outnumbered, and clearly outvoted. Such is life I suppose. Oh, I think that you should tell all your friends up there in Utah sharing the fun with us here at ASP that the favor is about to be returned…
hugs
haystack
so, anyone who has ties to the GOP, even those who lost a loved one to this war, are not entitled to an opinion because of same?
It has been widely reported that the official commission picked and chose the political agendas of the participants…there is no double standard in your eyes? And again, the opinions of these particular Gold Star Families don’t count because they ARE or are in SUPPORT OF the GOP?
wow…what a world we have now under the new majority…this is gonna be fun!
MilMom
Supporting the Soldier means getting them the hell OUT NOW!
Thats why I’m here, and I’m not going away until this blog becomes and pro-defense, pro-American Anti-war blog.
It is far too important that you people get a grip on reality so we can find peace in this world.
BTW: You don’t support ALL the Soldiers. You only support the ones that agree with you. Do you have any idea how many high level officers have come out against the war? No you don’t care. You say you are loyal military folks, but then you dismiss the inordinate number of very distigished brave long-serving officers who have risked their lives for this country and their reputations by doing the most unpoular thing a soldier can do: stand up against this adminstrations failed policies.
Not going away. Your love fest is over!
One more warning, if you people don’t start to engage in an intelligent discussion, I will bring about 50 bloggers down on you and you know I can do it as we outnumber you fifity to one across the blogoshere (in case you aren’t paying attention)
Even here in the Land of Zion (CJs and mine) progressive blogs out number conservative ones fifty to one.
haystack
Be very careful milmom…very careful.
MilMom
Excuse me? Is that an admission that Bush knowingly lied to the American people about WMD, or are you threatening me?
haystack
You are a tiresome fool. Is not an admission that Bush intentionally lied about anything. And, it is not a threat.
I promise you that if you don’t stop your threats about bringing 50 bloggers here to trash the site, or your foolish notion that you can come in to someone else’s house and dictate the discussion and the opinions of the participants, then you will face the repercussions allowed for by law in such matters.
This is not your home. You are a guest at the pleasure of the owner…CJ, and when he decides your privileges to use the bandwidth for which he pays are outweighed by your disrespect of him and the other welcomed guests here, then you will be gone.
I know who you are, I know what you stand for, and I know where you are coming from. You don’t have to like the content or the people here, but you are NOT going to dictate either one.
Should you rain down on this website with your 50 to 1 ratio of like-minded liberal whackjobs, you will be given full due consideration…this is not a threat failed Senatorial candidate, this is a promise.
Terri
You know what? Don’t we live in the United States? Last I heard, because that IS where we live MilMom, the United States of American and because we do, we are ENTITLED to our own opinions and you have no right telling us how we should believe, what we can or cannot post. We don’t live under a dictatorship, therefore, we can CHOSE what we want to say, what we want to believe and your threats do nothing more than make us NOT listen to anything you have to say. If you think your ranting and raving and threats are going to convince anyone here to agree with your point of view, you’re wrong.
One Nephi
Priesthood went a little longer than I thought. Whew!
Curious, however, just what “repercussions allowed for by law” you refer, Haystack. I am not aware of any such law that prevents folks from commenting on a blog. I could be wrong, however. Can you direct me to the law that you refer?
Dragooner
Wow, this is heated thread! I’m sorry I didn’t check back earlier…
MilMom’s got a point Haystack, “The War on Terror” is a giant load of BS.
You remember the “War on Drugs”? The “War on Terror” is the War on Drugs redux! ‘Cause we all remember how well the first one went, hey wait a sec, that sort of forms the same parrallel as Iraq-Vietnam: WarOnTerror-WarOnDrugs.
And it’s always those damn hippy boomers fault.
You know what’s really screwed up about this country, 70% of the population believes in Angels, and there’s still 35% of the country who approve of Bush’s job in office. Anyway, you can always click on my name, i put the news stories there.
Dragooner
Oh and as regards as to who new what when vis-a-vis the Weapons of Mass Deception and the idiocy of the idea; I do believe the French might have tried to say something about the whole thing being a giant crock, and a bad idea…probably had something to do with their little adventure in Algeria….but of course nobody ever listens to those lazy effeminate bastards. (And for good reason, they’re always looking down their noses which makes a bad impression.)
(Click on my name)
haystack
onenephi-you need to pay closer attention. There are laws against spamming. If the esteemed nutcase appropriates all these bloggers to a privately held site for the purposes of spamming or otherwise interefering with the actions of the website in a mischievous manner, the law allows for ip’s to be blocked and continued abuses to be reported to authorities, and I am not going to waste my time on your sorry condescending hide looking for the actual link in the US code regarding such matters.
dragooner-milmom has no point. There are terrorists committing unacceptable crimes against humanity in the name of jihad…using fear of death (terror) in the pursuit of bending the world to their will. Some of us have a problem with it, and see it as a movement throughout the world that must be stood up against. You, and milmom, and nephi are condescending fools that just take pleasure in coming here and peeing on the carpet for the sheer teenager joy of it.
You offer nothing more than anti-whatever anyone says here just for the sake of it, and I find you and your fellow children fools and tiresome. Clicking on your name is a delicious adventure in nothingness…thank you for your waste of my time…and CJ’s bandwidth.
sue
BRAVOOOO!!!! HERE HERE!!!! Thanks Haystack!!!
MilMom
The beauty of the Internet is that it represents a purley democratic process. You are well within your rights to ban my IP address. Go for it. I’m surprised you haven’t. A comend you for not doing so.
I don’t know if you spek for everyone when you suggest this is your home and I cannot change any minds. I know for a fact that blog statistics suggest only one in one hundred readers post.
That means for every one of you commenting 99 are reading but not commenting. Nes pas?
I have only ever stated documented facts here. Granted I have injected some emotion, but nevertheless, supportable documented fact.
On the other hand, the sentiments expressed by your family have been accompanied by not supportable facts outside of heresay.
I respectfully submit to your that many of your silent readers appreciate the balance.
So it’s your choice. You may define yourselves as Americans open to a diversity of opinions, or you may shut down all dissent.
It is CJ’s decision I imagine. If he should decide to censor his bretheren so be it.
haystack
moving.
golf clap.
sleep now.
your facts and your statistics touch me deeply.
I have seen the light.
MilMom
Muscle head
haystack
thank ya ma’am
See, you were in here earlier thumping your chest about what YOU were going to do TO us until we saw the light and changed ourselves into what you expect of us…and we just ain’t takin’ kindly to any such notion that you have the right to talk to us that way.
When you are reminded there are ways to show you the error of YOUR ways OR show you the door, you come back in here all contrite and calm-toned, and pathetic.
You and your passion are yours and you have your rightsdto them. We have our space that you can not be so easily allowed to invade.
You are, in my eyes, the short sighted, self-serving child-minded fool you seem convinced we, ourselves are. This, as they say in my neck of the woods, is a Mexican standoff…but it is NOT your house. And I will thank you kindly to remember that, as a guest in our house you use respect and civility and an acceptance that there are those of us who do not share your perspective…
Note the word “perspective”…as in the name of this site-A “Soldiers Perspective”…we are here to support them in their mission, and we are not about to cow-tow to someone who is predisposed to lecturing and threatening, and suggesting your mission will be to invade on our happy little home.
Now move on, or treat us with the respect we deserve, and CJ and his fellow men and women in uniform have earned…
you are but a playtoy at the whim of the management…move on.
Patriot
Milmom, I’m so glad you came to set me straight. All this time I actually thought people had flown real planes into real buildings in NY and DC. The special effects used on the USS Cole were so realistic. And the staged Kobar towers bombings were a masterful piece of directorial brilliance. And how did they get the Spaniards to go along with that fake train bombing and realistic reaction from victims?
But, I’m confused. You say there is “no war on terror” yet you say that the war on terror will end after this President (thank for properly capitalizing by the way). How can you end something you say doesn’t exist in the first place? I can’t wrap my mind around that one.
Muscle head…tee hee. What’s next? poo poo face?
Actually, Milmom, I’ve got a challenge for you. Show me proof that the terrorists are a figment of my imagination as someone who has exchanged bullets with them. I’ll show you proof that there really are terrorists. Here are the rules of this proof: any evidence you produce must be your own, not reproduced. I want to see your firsthand knowledge. I promise to show you my firsthand knowledge. You see, I don’t write conjecture here. I’ve “been there, done that.” I’ve faced down the very people that really just want to kill you. Yes, you in particular and you in general. Don’t worry, though, I shot him first, so you’re safe. Don’t worry about thanking me. I don’t want to waste your text box with such formalities while you attempt to cast doubt on my own eyeballs.
Also, I’d like to compare some notes with you on your trip to Iraq as well. I’m sure your experiences were much different than mine…both of them. Of course, the first time I was only there for about five months, but I was extended four months the second time to make up for it.
strobes
Perhaps us “silent readers” don’t want to dignify these shenanigans with a response. Oops, I just did. **Walks away shaking head**.
Dragooner
Hi Patriot,
Milmom’s point, unless I’m mistaken is NOT that there are no terrorists or terrorist attacks. Of course there are! However, the “War” on Terror is a load of horse manure (no swearing here right?).
You can’t fight a war on an ideology or an idea or an object… just like the “War” on Drugs. That was another load of BS, though of course I would have to agree that drugs and drug dealers exist, I would suggest that fighting a “War” on the drugs themselves is absolute nonsense.
So you see, we could have a war against Al Qaeda, we could have a war agains the Cosa Nostra….we cannnot however, have a “War” on Terror or a “War” on Drugs….it’s quite simply impossible and results in the deformation of our nations policies that tend to result in benefitting the very thing we’re supposed to be “Warring” against.
The War on Drugs has certainly not resolved domestic drug addiction and drug related crime. (Oh yeah, and put alot of people in Jail for ‘Marijuana’, bravo!) But has become a political talking point completely seperated from the reality on the streets.
The War on Terror has NOT made America demonstrably safer and yet has compromised our Civil Liberties (which you guys are supposed to be protecting) helped to justify turning Iraq into a safe-haven for extremists and so greatly reduced our stature in the world that we are far weaker than we were before.
In conclusion; no the terrorists are not a figment of your imagination.
The War on Terror is a figment of your imagination!
(Unfortunately I fail to see how your killing of Iraqis has made us any safer, here at home. If you’d like to elaborate on that point it would be much appreciated.)
Patriot
Dragoon, that kind of explains it a little. I see your point and your explanation makes sense. However, let’s not use a very narrow definition of war. For example, we frequently have a war of words here on this blog, but it doesn’t mean that we’re physically fighting or shooting each other. Some definitions of war include words like “struggle”, “conflict”, and “contest”. The “war on poverty” doesn’t require troops. It requires money, caring, and personal commitment. The “war on illiteracy” doesn’t require troops. It requires money, education, and love. No one is trying to kill us in these “wars”. As far as the war on drugs, I also think that it’s absurd that marijuana is so aggressively “fought” and people are placed in prison for possession of it (I realize I’m probably alone here). I’ve never personally done, nor will I ever do, drugs to include marijuana. Marijuana has been linked to ONE death. There are no cases of it causing lung cancer or other ailments, unlike cigarettes. It has been proven to cure or help with many ailments, unlike cigarettes. Yes, we put people into prison for its possession. But let me be clear here: DON’T DO DRUGS anyway.
Unfortunately, the ideal of terrorism is one that’s killing us. This war DOES require troops. It requires troops because the countries harboring them are unwilling or unable to do it themselves. If we know where people are that are killing Americans, we need to kill them. Al Qaeda themselves have made Iraq their central target for their acts of hate of agression. They do so because we are there. While they still plot to kill us here in the states, their focus is Iraq not America. Just because I shot someone IN Iraq, doesn’t necessarily make him Iraqi. He’s been Egyption, Saudi, Palestinian, Iraqi, and in many cases Iranian. I, personally, haven’t shot someone that ended up being Syrian but it’s happened.
So, to elaborate, my killing of people IN Iraq has made us safer because they aren’t trying to get into America. They’re trying to get into Iraq. What I would like elaboration on is what we should really do if we aren’t supposed to fight terrorism at its source.
Dragooner
Ok, so we’re essentially on the same page…and I’m suremost people would certainly agree that it is important to fight terrorism at it’s sources. And that does mean tracking down and taking out Al Qaeda and other “terrorist” (or as you right wingers seem to prefer “islamico-fascist”) organizations. However, as you rightly noted it’s the “ideal” (“idea”/”ideology”) of the islamic extremists that’s killing us. Their ideology has been strenghtened by this war!
The question then is are we accomplishing that objective through our continued occupation of Iraq??? Just becasue you’ve got Islamic extremists infiltrating Iraq and attempting to sabotage your operations doesn’t mean that those same extremists wouldn’t rather be blowing up NYC.
It doesn’t seem to add up, they’re killing our people in Iraq because they can. If they could get into the states they’d be more than happy to start things up in the “homeland”…the reason they haven’t has to be because:
1. The security services have gotten their act together since 9-11.
2. We’ve been lucky.
The resources the Jihadis have going into Iraq are not neccesarily the same resources they have trying to get into the states. So any people they’re throwing at us in Iraq is not diminishing their capacity to hit us at home.
What can the army reasonably hope to accomplish by maintaining it’s current posture in Iraq? Wouldn’t those interests be equally well served by repositioning out of the line of fire…into Kurdistan or back to Kuwait?
(as always click on my name for a cool link)
Dragooner
Oh yeah, forgot to add that the United States should not support torture of suspected terrorists while conducting the “War on Terror”.
As I’m sure everyone will agree.
MilMom
Many people who study terrorism as a career, believe the solution to terrorism is very similar to the war on poverty. You know economic developement. Stop supporting regimes who keep all the oil money.
Did you know that we bought the books and funded the Madrases in the eighties in hopes of creating more fighters aginst the Soviets. We could go back and buy new books, school supplies, backpacks, teachers etc. for the price of one of the 10 extra C1s the republicans ordered that the military didn’t ask for.
or..we could just stop voting for republicans.
One Nephi
MilMom has a point.
There are ways, other than simply shooting folks or otherwise imposing our will on a nervous populace (reverse terrorism??), to bring this so-called War on Terror to an end. I believe that going to the root of the cause and eliminating that root is the best course of action. Never on this site do I hear a discussion about what motivates terrorists, other than shrill comments that terrorists harbor a desire to kill Americans. That position begs, however, the question: “Why do terrorists harbor that desire?”
Osama attacked the US and other interests around the world not because he had a pure (or contorted) desire to kill Americans, but that Americans had brought their presense to Saudi soil. Had we not been on Saudi soil (supporting continued coruption of the royal family), then 9/11 is likely never to occurred.
I wonder, then, if folks on this blog and elsewhere might take a few moments and think about what drives terrorists to desire to kill Americans, other than the thrill of killing Americans.
One Nephi
PS Haystack, I provide what I believe is the relevant portion of the Criminal Spam Act of 2003 for your consideration:
`Sec. 1037. Fraud and related activity in connection with electronic mail
`(a) IN GENERAL- Whoever, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly–
`(1) accesses a protected computer without authorization, and intentionally initiates the transmission of multiple commercial electronic mail messages from or through such computer;
`(2) uses a protected computer to relay or retransmit multiple commercial electronic mail messages, with the intent to deceive or mislead recipients, or any Internet access service, as to the origin of such messages;
`(3) falsifies header information in multiple commercial electronic mail messages and intentionally initiates the transmission of such messages; or
`(4) registers, using information that falsifies the identity of the actual registrant, for 5 or more electronic mail accounts or online user accounts or 2 or more domain names, and intentionally initiates the transmission of multiple commercial electronic mail messages from such accounts or domain names;
or conspires to do so, shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).
Obviously, Haystack, your interpretation of spam is at odds with federal statute. While I do not condone flooding this or any other blog with liberal viewpoints, I don’t think there is anything that can be done, legally, in response, other than blocking traffic, just as the case would be were a liberal viewpoint blog be flooded with neo-con rhetoric.
Just thought you might like to know.
haystack
onenephi, you are dog with a bone, I’ll give you that. My interpretation is fine. While you may or may not be part of milmom’s little love fest in Utah, her threat to bring “50 bloggers” here would result in what is covered in (2) …commercial in the sense that an “organization” comes forward to interrupt the operation of a computer (Cj’s servers)…and even if you beat that in a court, it is improper, malicious, and would of course AT LEAST result in being blocked.
You fools on the left that hide behind what you can get away with via loopholes in laws…because of some perceived right to be disrespectful of someone else’s place and property make me sick (not that you give a flip)…and none of that matters…to you OR me at this point
knock yourself out and exercise your rights…CJ will too.
One Nephi
Haystack,
OK. We can agree to disagree on the applicability of the law in this instance; although I will suggest that MilMom’s intent was most likely not to interrupt operation of a computer, but to flood this site with liberal perspective. I don’t know. MilMom?
But what about the preceeding comment re the intent of terrorists and what drives that intent? I am curious about your thoughts in that regard. I would have liked to discuss the topic on redstate, but ….
sue
Nephi I will take a small stab at answering your question. It is my belief that what drives the terrorists is the basic hijacking of a fundamentalist religion and so bastardizing it to a point where it becomes unrecognizable. The Islamic religion, while heralded as the “religion of peace” is truly not. And when it’s laws are interpreted by radical extremists it is easy to see how we as “infidels” become the targets of their hatred.
One has only to look at the promise of 69 virgins or how ever many it is, and the fact that people actually believe that they will be waiting when they strap a ton of explosives to their bodies and blow scores of innocent people to pieces. They are brain washed in Mudrasas and sent out to do the bidding of the radical Mullahs. This is not rational. We, (hopefully you to) can see how insane this is, but they become caught up in it much the way the Jonestown massacre happened. I hope that you can understand my point.
This however is just a small part of the actual reasons, and there are MANY of them that cause these people to hate us. Others include socioeconomic reasons, fanaticism, poverty and plain and simple stupidity. I’m hoping you can address my comments in your new found respectful manner.
One Nephi
Sue,
I agree with everything you say; excepting, however, the notion that Islam is not a religion of peace. Although far from a scholar of Islam, I believe it is the very hijacking you refer that has contorted a religion of peace to one having tenents of murderous hatred. I suspect a similar case can be made of Christians contorting Bible passages to suit their own selfish purposes.
What I am trying to understand is why the fundamentalists twist Islam to such a degree that folks blow themselves up, etc. I have a hard time believing that they are driven by an ingrained hatred of all things West. After all, the west is relatively new in the time frame of Islam – a thousand years ago there was no west to hate. I truly believe, however, that the west’s support of the Saudi royal family – again a selfish motive having repercussions on the backs of many of the Saudi poor – is one driving motivator, as seen by Osama and his actions.
All in all, I think further that we must understand and address whatever the root causes of the hatred are in order to bring peace to the region and the world. Macho and brawn – e.g., guns and bullets – will only bring more of the same. Wish I had the answer!
sue
Nephi,
Actually the myth of the “religion of peace” was what I always thought too. I was however corrected by Miriam, who I hope will chime in here, and help to explain Islam a little better, since I am no scholar on it either. However, it is not a religion of peace. It is a religion fraught with violence and hatred, and has been for many years.
The hatred of the west comes mostly I believe from the Mullahs who preach in the Mudrasas. Preach hatred of all things western, of all things to do with us infidels. I don’t know if you have ever seen that email that circulates about the man who was attending a conference where a mullah spoke about how peaceful Islam was right up until he started talking about how it is the duty of all Muslims who follow the Koran to kill infidels.
This is hardly a peaceful act. The man in the audience stood up and asked the Mullah to define an infidel. Basically his answer was (paraphrasing) that any one who was not of the Muslim Faith was an Infidel and should be killed by all faithful Muslims. This to me is not a “peaceful religion”.
Christians have no lock on “peacefulness” by any stretch of the imagination and I do agree with you 1,000,000 percent that many Christians contort the teaching of the Bible to suit their own twisted needs. (However, these people are generally frowned upon and looked at as oddities, they do not make up a growing majority of the religion.) This I am quite sure is the case with any religion. It doesn’t matter which one. It is the same with Political parties. All it takes is a twist of the phrase and you have changed the course of history. Hitler would be a good case in point, Stalin another. (Also these examples would work for the brain washing effects of the Mudrasas. Hitler seduced Germany!!)
Mostly the problems come from, in my opinion, the brain washing of the children. I don’t know if you were around when CJ or Patriot did the posts about the radical Islamic children. There were pictures that were just bone chilling. These are not normal children. They are being raised and taught to hate fear and kill from the time they are born. In order to change the course of events in this very dangerous time, it is my belief that we MUST start with the children to break the cycle. And believe it or not Nephi, that is something our Soldiers and Marines are doing. Every time they reach out their hands to a child, that child is less likely to hate. By going into Iraq, we have laid a foundation for a new generation to grow up free from that hatred. (Similar to the effects of helping someone not to abuse. Abusers come from abuse. So if you can stop the cycle, the abuse stops.) I know you are not going to agree with me about that, I understand how different our opinions are, but I think that comes more from your not having seen what the guys are doing and hearing them speak so passionately about what they are doing. I agree to disagree with you and respect your opinions and would hope that you can respect mine.
But, I would hope also that you would at least try to look into what I have told you and maybe think about the possibility that there may be another side to the story than the one that you have believe.
And while I don’t like guns, never have, I understand that they are a necessary evil in this world where there are insane people who want to kill you, your family, me and my family, for the plain and simple reason that we all exist. And if by CJ, Cpl M, Patriot and all the others picking up a gun and shooting these whackos, keeps you safe, and me safe, I will support them, and i will thank them with every thing I can possibly do.
Knowing that men like CJ and Cpl M and Patriot and the others, and women like White Rose are standing on that wall saying “It’s ok, you sleep sound tonight, I’ll take this watch”, with a gun in their hand gives me peace of mind. Nephi, I support my guys. I know them. I love them. They are just amazing. And I will tell you, they tell me in so many words, they would rather be there doing what they are doing and missing the time with their families because they know what they are doing is the right thing. I have to go with that. Sorry.
One Nephi
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Sue. I am going to take some time to digest what you have said. Have a great day.
sue
and you do the same!
sue
Ok Nephi, I went back through the archives and found the article I was referring to for you. Go down the page, I think its maybe the second article. You can’t miss it there is a baby in a little baby seat there. Go, look, and maybe you will understand the point I was trying to make.
http://www.soldiersperspective.us/?m=200608&paged=6
sue
Here is the other one.
http://www.soldiersperspective.us/?p=1106#comments
One Nephi
The websites are frightening, no question about that! Hamas and Hezbolah have been teaching kids from early ages to hate Israelis – “See that land over there child? That land belongs to you, but was stolen by the murderous jews, etc., etc., etc. It is your right and duty to do everything in your power to reclaim the land.”
The question that I struggle with is, however, what, if anything, can be done to get at the root cause driving adults to teach children such hatred? The Israeli/Palistinian conflict has been raging for decades and is not likely to go away soon. And in a manner of facetiousness, it is almost a shame that the Palestinians didn’t take it sitting down like the Native Americans in this country – who were screwed badly in the 1800s and continue to be screwed by America to this day (but that is a different issue).
And, unfortunately, the means of brainwashing children that has proved so “successful” to the Palestinian terrorist cause is now most likely being employed in Iraq and elsewhere. [As an aside, it should also be noted that Palestinians are considered about the lowest form of Arab in the middle east, and most middle eastern countrys could give a rat's behind about the Palestinian people - they just make a great pretext for the bigger problems in the region, which is American presence on Arab land and in Arab governments - e.g., Saudi Arabia]
While I greatly appreciate the sacrifice our Soldiers and Marines make to the cause, I feel that ultimately, the solution must be a political one. We will never force middle eastern countries – and other Muslim populations around the world – to adopt our will at the point of a gun. Just isn’t going to happen. Again, I wish I had the answer.
Sorry for the rambling thoughts, but I wanted to respons with something before the top-post becomes burried in the archives. Been kind of busy these past few days. Hope things are well, Sue.
sue
I think that ultimately Nephi, the answer lies in two places. First, education. An uneducated person is much more gullible than an educated one, (I could make some comments about certain posts on here but won’t.) and would more likely look at the mullah and say “Ya, 69 virgins, wild man, sign me up.” While and educated one would be more likely to say, “What are you nuts?” But that’s just my opinion. I truly believe if the people could be better educated, which thanks to our Soldiers rebuilding schools and handing out school supplies and providing safety for those people, (at the point of a gun as you say.) it is happening as we speak.
And my second would be with the women. Women in Arab Society are nothing more than chattel. They are second class citizens and men rule everything. Women, though I’m sure that it will make you cringe to hear me say this, are the voice of reason in many matters. They are also the hand that rocks the cradle. If the women were allowed a voice, perhaps things would be very different. A woman carries a child inside her for 9 months. Feeling it grow, going through the pain of giving birth, and then years feeding, nurturing and caring for that child. That child is part of her body, and lives in her heart. NO woman in her right mind wants her child to grow up and be a suicide bomber. But again, education and brain washing as well as the inability for the women to have, let alone voice an opinion. I think if this changed, the mentality might change also.
And the important thing that I think you are still not seeing, about “the point of the gun” is that the Iraqi people are now free to think for themselves and to make choices that are not dictated to them. And when that happens Nephi, creativity blossoms and people begin to have hopes and dreams and they find a better way of life for themselves. So, though war is bad, costly, painful, destructive, and a burden, we must also look at the good that is gained. Look beyond the media sensationalism for a moment and think about the fact that a whole lot of people voted freely for the first time. That those people chose a democratically elected government that now is seated, making decisions and struggling with the same exact issues and struggles that our very own founding fathers struggled with. Only people seem to forget that our Nation was not born over night. It was born from a dictatorship and usurpations of their rights just as the Iraqis lived with for a lot of years with Saddam. And even after we had a Constitution it wasn’t ratified over night. The Constitution was not perfect from the start. It evolved over many years as evidenced by the amendments, and not just a few, there are more than twenty!!! I would hardly call it perfect!!! But the Constitution was so brilliantly written, that it is not a finite thing. Our Country’s Constitution is a living breathing thing, and grows with the changing times. And our own country less than one hundred years after our Independence, erupted in a violent Civil War.
But with today’s gimme gimme gotta have it now attitude, people are expecting things to be instantly better. And they wont be. They will take time. And ultimately, that is what our Soldiers and Marines are buying those people. With their blood, their sweat, and their tears. And it is, I assure you, one that they are fighting for with passion. I know that I have probably not given you adequate explanation here, or probably haven’t made a convincing argument given your original position, but this is why I do believe in the war, and the Soldiers and Marines who are fighting it. And the Indian part, well that is a discussion we might also have. I am enjoying talking to you. And things are well, thanks for asking, and I hope they are for you too.
CJ
What a terrible country we live in Nephi. You must hate being an “American”. Do you skip that section on applications intentionally? If you need any help going to a country you can feel good about living in, let us know. We can probably help somehow. I’m quite positive you can find a nation with a flawless history and better morals that this place.
Terri
Very well said Sue and Nephi too raises some very valid points. We also see some of the brainwashing type things going on here in the United States, with the gangs and the hate groups. Having worked in Law Enforcement, I was able to wittness first hand how some of these people raise their children to believe that anyone who doesn’t believe as they do, were wrong and to be hated. In our society however, our laws allow us to jail these types of people, if their behavior is such that it infringes upon th rights of others. As Sue said, Iraq’s new government is in it’s infant stages, so to speak, evolving and growing and like most things in it’s early years, here will be “growing pains” along the way. The Iraqi people have taken the first step by having their first democratic election. If allowed to flourish and grow, Iraq can be a country full of people free to think for themselves, make their own choice, as we do here. With the aid of the Coalition troops, we’re helping to ensure that can happen. Our soldiers and the other coalition soldiers are very dedicated to this process and if given te opportunity to complete their missions, freedom is possible in Iraq.