A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
Good morning, folks. Here is another Open Briefing thread for all of us to enjoy. The topic is entirely up, well, everyone down in the comments. All you bloggers feel free to use those nifty trackbacks if you have something you like to share, but ensure you mention this post at the end of your post. It is only fair.
Here is what I have for today. Yesterday was my little brother’s 20th birthday. I’m only two years and ten months older than he, but it is really hard to imagine that my LITTLE brother is now TWENTY. I know I’m going to catch hell from LL and probably a few others, but hell. Bring it.
Last thing I have is a little more serious and that is the subject of Saddam’s impending death. Reports are about that it could be by the end of the weekend or it could be whenever the Iraqis get around to it. What do you think? Is sooner better than later? Should his other trial finish before he is sent off to meet Allah? Discuss amongst yourselves.
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PJ
Cpl M, I think that the sooner the better on Saddam. My preference would be the chipper his boy used on his torture victims, but that’s just me. Since they’ve decided to hang him, I’d like to see it done in complete secrecy. No martyr locations, no memeorial wreaths, no demonstrations nthing remaining. His remains should be creamated and scattered in secrecy too.
CJ
I think they should throw him in the lion’s cage like he did himself. I have pictures in remembrance book of lionesses chewing on old femurs at Saddam’s palace. Also in the cage were no less than three human skulls and multiple other human bones scattered all over the cage where three lions were kept. It’s only fitting that he die that same fate.
Chad
I like the eye for an eye thing!!!
sue
Ya that eye for an eye thing is so appealing isn’t it? I do agree with PJ that it should be done in secret though, but, there should be a few still photos. One of the actual hanging, one of his body sans bag, being dropped into the crematorium, and one of his ashes being dumped into raw sewage on the very streets that he terrorized for so long.
Now, I am not some kind of crazy for asking for the pix. The reason for them is that so many Iraqis are still afraid that Saddam will some how be freed to terrorize them once again that they need to be seeing that that ain’t gonna be happening again. Once gone, perhaps another sort of healing can take place. One necessary for the hearts and minds of all Iraqis to move on.
CJ, I have never seen what you have seen or experienced the horrific things that I know you have, so it’s just a little harder for me to go more barbaric than that.
CJ
Sue, don’t worry. As I sit back and read my comments, I realize that “an eye for an eye tends to make the whole world blind.” Saddam brutally hurt so many Iraqis and every day I was there I heard them. Those people need some closure, however it comes, public or private. So long as he dies, I’ll be happy for the Iraqi people.
Chad
Sue, I disagree and believe that the video should be made public. The more our enemies see that we (Iraqi government included) are going to actually punish and follow through, I think it might scare some into not working with terrorists. I am sure the other side could and would see a picture as maybe having been fabricated. Either way, I realize all hell is going to break loose when this actually happens.
sue
agreed! (oooops is that too tribal??) ha ha ha
Frank Staheli
I’m not sure that now is the appropriate time to execute him, due to the fact that there are several other trials that should occur. Do they try him in absentia or will the trials simply not occur. I’m afraid (but I encourage the entire truth to come out) that some of what would occur in other trials will point a finger back to America (as a result of helping Saddam balance out the Middle East against Iran in the 1980′s.)
Nevertheless, when his death does occur, I suggest photographic evidence as proof that it did happen, although I don’t agree with the video-taping of it. Then again Chad has a good point about the doctoring of still shots.
Also, I have written some commentary about Saddam’s conciliatory statements that were released yesterday.
sue
Chad, I don’t agree with you even though that’s what it looks like. My post was about CJ’s comment. I don’t think that Martyring Saddam is the answer to any of this or even that it should be done live. But it is not really for us to decide. What is needed is for the Iraqi people to decide what is necessary for themselves to find closure and begin the healing process.
I do however agree with you that the proverbial pooh will surely hit the fan when this does happen. And probably rightly so. I would like to think that as Americans, we could be a little more civilized about it, since we are not normally a “Tribal” Society (Even though Cliffy thinks so, but I am referring to “Tribal” in a different sense.) and not riot and such, but, look what happens when a Basketball or Football team wins a Championship. A portion of the population can’t even act civilized then. Which, if you think about it, is exactly what is going on in Iraq. A portion of the Society cannot act civilized.
I think that the people would be a little more willing to accept the photos, having already been there done that with Uday and Kusay. The people know that they are never coming back now and I think that they will understand that about Saddam too. They have had some time now to start to construct lives, as difficult as it is in portions of Iraq to do that, and may be more able to accept his death, even not having watched it.
Bob The Liberal
Well, a little tech note for all of you out there…
If you have an E-Machines or a Gateway computer, do NOT!!! upgrade to Internet Explorer 7. According to their tech support, its not compatible with their machines.
Found this out from them last night, after calling for one of our subscribers.
Besides, FireFox is SO much better.
/tech
And I can’t wait until the hang the little SOB. Will it be televised?
That would make a fortune on PPV.
Chad
Making Saddam a martyr is not the goal of this trial, I believe. There are a few thoughts behind the death penalty. Kill them to remove them from society, kill them to help society have closure, kill them as punishment. There are more and I am sure my criminal justice prof. would be sad that I can’t remember them all. I am not saying put his execution up live but put the video up in a week or two. Let people make their own decision about seeing it or not.
I do think that there are more people than just the Iraqis though that need closure from this man’s death. Many of us on this blog, me not included, shipped away from family and friend because of his actions or inactions with the UN. Others of us, me included this time, sent fathers/mothers/brother/sisters over to protect and defend. Promises were made and broken by him and we have a lot of brothers and sisters there again because of him. So I don’t think in viewing the whole picture this is just about closure for Iraqis but also about those effected by having to serve in Iraq or send a loved one over to Iraq. It is about closure for them all. Iraqi, US citizen, us all!!
Point being, he killed coldly and I feel as though killing him is the right punishment. Video or picture; just get it over with already.
Terri
Well it sounds like they’re now saying that Saddam’s death sentence will be carried out before Saturday and that our troops are gearing up for any possible problems that occur because of that. I think that regardless of when we do it, our troops should be forefront in our thoughts and prayers, that they’ll be safe and be able to stem any uprising that may occur because of his execution.
Chad
AMEN!!
Kat in GA
Sooner is better than later; get it over with, quietly, stealthily, have some form of proof, be it photographs or video, and for God’s sake get DNA proof that said body really is Sadaam just as extra proof. I’m afraid for the chaos that will result, but he deserves to be executed and the people of Iraq deserve to know that he is GONE and can never torture them again! Our troops are very much in my prayers, now and always.
Kari
I have been reading your blog for quite awhile now but I am finally getting around to signing up. This is a great place!!
Anyway…I want to say do it ASAP but I do have reservations on that statement ONLY for the validation that would come from the other trial for the families of the others he murdered. Maybe that is just me and my American way. Maybe the other families could careless about the trial and just want to see him dead!
Terri I am with you and praying our troops will not have any harm come to them because of this execution.
LL
You know, I’m not really the kind of person that would be happy about anyone having to die. Saddam committed horrific crimes against his people. It is their right to punish him as they see fit. As long as they are satisfied that they have received justice, whether it’s by his death now or later or if he somehow ends up in a lifelong imprisonment, I hope that the people of Iraq can move beyond his rule to one of self-determination and equality amongst their citizens. If they can do that much with the lessons they learned under Saddam, and with our attempts to give them freedom, I will be happy.
LL
Oh, and since this is the open briefing and any topic is up for grabs, has anyone else noticed that ol’ Cliff is not wailing and gnashing his teeth about the Vast Right Wing ‘A Soldier’s Perspective’ Conspiracy to paint him wrongly with erroneous charges leveled at him. I told Cpl M that I’m thinkin’ he doesn’t want to point his readers to that screenshot. He was always demanding “proof” of everything said by all of us and when he got it in spades, he is kinda speechless, isn’t he?
I’m giggly about that. Does that make me a bad person? haha
Oh, and Sue, I saw your response to his post that he addressed to you. You might want to send him to that famous picture that Michael Yon took of that Soldier or Marine carrying that wounded little girl away from the car bomb that the insurgents drove into the middle of a gathering of children. More proof. But of course it won’t be accepted as REAL proof.
sue
LL I am so done!! I have moved on!! I think that he is nothing more than a joke, though he does take himself so seriously and with such intensity that he has lost sight of all rhyme or reason. So he and his lackeys will try some more to make “their” people think that ASP is the enemy but alas, poor Cliffy, we knew him all too well. I gave him the chance, twice to answer MY question and he couldn’t/wouldn’t. He lost the game. So sorry!!
sue
Oh and Welcome Kari!!
LL
More power to ya, babe. Sometimes, it’s just easier to walk away from idiocy than to keep banging your head against a wall.
sealpatriot
Frank, I just read an article at your blog site that talks about Saddam’s letter to his people not to hate. I thought it was really interesting, and I still am trying to answer that question of if the justice Saddam is at the recieving end of right now is enough retribution for all the rapings, murder, and terror or stuff like that. Personally, I wonder how they got through all the trials for all his crimes in just a period of three years? For all of the crimes that he broke domestically(in terms of his own country) and internationally(U.N. sanctions applied to him), He would get both; guilty and death for all counts. Anyway Frank, keep up the good work on your site. I hope to continue reading your posts whenever I can.
sealpatriot
LL, even when your ears are already bleeding?
sue
Ryan, they haven’t gotten through all the trials for his war crimes. What he was tried for was a massacre of 148 men in a small town called Dujail, for attempting to assassinate him. The war crimes trials against him will proceed, even after his death by 10pm EST tonight. This needs to be done now before the dawn which is the beginning of a Holiday in Iraq.
This trial was chosen because there were more witnesses and more evidence for this trial than for any other case against him.
LL
Sealpatriot, it’s really a matter of how badly you want to “win.” Is presenting all kinds of evidence and getting name-called in response a viable debating method? Do you WANT to win against people who don’t want to debate and discuss topics? What is the point? How much time are you willing to spend on that endeavor? I guess I’m of the philosophy that I will only put in so much effort and if all I get is nastiness, there is no point and I have better things to do with my time and life. Your ears will only bleed if you continue to expose yourself to the noise.
sealpatriot
You have a great point there LL. Listen I don’t want to beat people who don’t want to have a mature discussion. I want them to join in it and listen to those who have a different opinion. No, I do not think name-calling or anything else like it is a respectful or viable debating method. However I completely respect and embrace our rights to get involved in our politcal issues both complex or not. So that is the reason why I continue to try and have a mature discussion with those who treat me like trash and ignore me. Even if they start trying to humiliate me in front of peers currently present. But that’s just me because I wish to take part in removing people less open minded and helping them become more respectful to those who might dissent with their perspective. For I know how it is like to be around people like that. At my university people get shouted down if they are friends or in anyway in show of respect for those who disagree with the radicals. I truly get tired of people who spread their ideology and the hate they compliment it with to make those who mildly disagree the ideology into complete enemies.
sealpatriot
Also, in addition to my response to LL. Name calling is a terrible debating method. That is why MilMom got kicked out.
Miriam
I’m not sure debating when Saddam should die is that useful. Muslims are just as expeditious at executions as they are at burying their dead, and they will do what they will do. They ARE trying to build some type of democracy, but we weren’t expecting them to change their Muslim ways, were we? And no, they don’t usually cremate people.
That they would excecute him was almost a foregone conculsion when we dragged him out of his hole. In my view, he deserves it. They have plenty of evidence against him. However to them, detailing every part of his guilt isn’t the point. All they needed was one conviction…no death row appeals or any of that stuff.
Will it bring healing? I guess that depends on what healing they allow it to bring. The people of that region are known for the lengthy holding of grudges. But healing is only available if they are willing to give up their grudges. Perhaps they are ready now. I hope so.
sealpatriot
point well put, Miriam!
Terri
I hope so too Miriam, for our Troops sake, for the sake of the children in Iraq, for the sake of the innocent people in Iraq, who only wish to continue to live their lives in a peaceful manner. Hopefully this execution, will be the beginning of the end of the violence and atrocities committed daily by the insurgents over there.
LL
Sealpatriot, when a site is devoted to one side of the political aisle or the other, there will be little room for debate. I don’t think it’s censorship or anything of that nature so much as like is drawn to like and when a “one of these things is not like the others” appears, it causes consternation. haha
If you want good, rational discussions and debate without all of the looniness found around, Two Babes and a Brain seems to have figured out a great way to balance it all. I’m not sure why it works though. One woman is liberal leaning (but sane haha) and the other is conservative. They’ve also brought in their friend and Fox contributor Colonel Hunt. That seems to be a site where you can go up against liberals and not be drowned in lies, rhetoric, and ad hominem attacks.
I don’t know if it’s because they are both moms and they will step in and shut down the out-of-hand squabbles or if people are kinda afraid of the Col. or what, but that site is a good one to face the opposite side at, regardless of where you sit politically. I used to spend a lot of time over there before I started my own site. Now, I tend to stick to my own circle of friends. We’re mostly like-minded, with the occasional uber-conservative thrown into the mix (and I sometimes wanna choke the ever-lovin’ life outta them (with LOVE) haha), and I’m too tired to keep fighting the same fights.
But you sound like you’re young and full of vim and vigor, so you might try there.
On the other topic being discussed here, since it’s done, all we can do is hope and pray that the Iraqis can put this behind them and move forward into a golden era of freedom and democracy and equality. I think it would be good to pray for that for ALL peoples all over the world. And topping the prayer list is for our troops to be safe and to be able to finish what our country has started.