A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
Information January 11 2007
— By Marcus
I don’t vote Democrat.
When you join the US military you are the president’s bitch.
Thanks for your wonderful insight into the military, Cliff.
Update: Cliff is backpedaling. Imagine that.
It has come to my attention that the ‘president’s bitch’ statement above has been repeated and interpreted on certain MilBlogs as a declarative statement rather than an hypothetical in the context of sarcasm. Hence the revision adding “(by this logic)�.
There was not even the slightest hint of sarcasm in Cliff’s original post. None. At. All. As someone says in the comments, true colors came out. The true colors are then amplified by the insanity in the comments.
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here is a address one wanted me to send gifts to hAddress : 41 Agbowo
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PJ
What a [edited by CJ]!
Flag Gazer
Beyond vile – –
Anyone surprised?
Terri
That is BEYOND disgusting! And then he wonders WHY we don’t agree with what he has to say? Gimme a break!
Frank Staheli
Cliff about half the time is very well reasoned, although I disagree with him about 90 percent of that half the time. Then, about half the time he lets his emotions get the best of him.
I can only assume in many of those cases that the height of his passion is equal to the fear that his point of view might not be correct.
Well reasoned is more persuasive than name-calling any day.
CJ
I say it’s just true colors coming through.
Patriot
This comment deleted by CJ. Patriot, please don’t use this forum to coordinate physical engagements with cartoon characters. You now have each other’s email address and I refuse to give OU any more publicity. We’re already responsible for doubling their exposure.
Chad
Patriot, I hope you show him how to play the soap in sock game.
White Rose
There are those that will never learn to play nice. The thing is we have the choice of weather we wish to play with them or not. I choose not to. I can’t see anything good coming out of banging my head against the wall!
Gunther
Well I don’t think that soldiers are the presidents bitch, they do however have to do what he says, unless of course he is ordering the troops to do something which violates their Oaths, in which case those soldiers are in fact violating their Oaths if they follow, and subject to whatever punishment.
I think we can agree that our President has been caught in many untruths, many of them told to federally appointed and elected officers in the US.
The force of believing which, have caused many of your brethren and Iraqis to be horribly maimed or dead. This is treason.
I have sworn the oath of citizenship and if Bush asked me to do something now, as I am liable to be commanded by civilian and miltary officers in time of the countries need(it’s in the citizebship oath), I would see if it measured up to my Oath to defend and uphold the Constitution from all enemies froeign and domestic, and if it did not, and if I was doing the task and discovered it to be so, I would quit and head to jail and suffer the consequences.
Serving those that have lied or even just been deceptive has no honor and I cannot see how any real soldier can be a part of it. This is what mercs are for.
sue
hmmmm sorry i dont agree.
Terri
Gunther, let me give you a bit of information on just how the President gets his information. The office of the President isn’t an office which gathers information. INSTEAD, he relies on information that is gathered by various informational gathering sources, such as the CIA, FBI, Interpol and other various agencies who are much more experienced at gathering this type of information than the President is. Once he receives this information, if he does not have information at that time to refute it, then he may or may not rely on that information to make decisions. In this case, President Bush relied on information from all of these sources, which said that there WERE WMD in Iraq. At the time the plans to invade Iraq were announced, THAT’S the information that he had been given. It wasn’t until later that it was revealved that the information he had received was not completely correct.
Being well educated in methods of gathering evidence and information, due to my years of education and experience in Criminal Justice, I fail to see how people continue to say that Bush lied when all he was doing was relying on information that he was given, which at the time had NOT been proven false. It really amuses me that the American Public is stupid enough to believe that he gathered this information and therefore knew it was not true. Gimme a Break!
CriticalFacts
Terri,
Bush lied is an exageration, for sure. But what Bush did do is to couch the information he was given in a manner that supported his agenda – e.g., the means justify the ends. His agenda was to make a case for invading Iraq, and I don’t see how anyone, especially someone as yourself with your experience gathering and interpreting facts, can come to an opposite conclusion. While Bush may not have lied through affirmative statements – e.g., Clinton denying sex with that woman – Bush very likely lied through misrepresentation and omission.
PJ
Bush didn’t lie, Colin Powell and everyone down the line lied to Bush. You’re absolutely right Terri, I too am in law enforcement and the gathering of information is done by police detectives and it’s up to the DA what he does with it beyond that point. Judges, or in jury trials, juries make the ultimate decision on what to do with that information. They hope and believe that the information is correct by the time it filters through to them. In the case of the WMD’s, which the liberals always harp on, Bush and his advisors would be the Judge or jury, Powell would be the DA, and the various intelligence agencies would be the police.
Despite all this, we did take 19 months in our runup to war and most WMD’s that everyone in the world including the UN knew Saddam had were slipped into Syria and surrounding countries (Probably some ended up in France and Germany and Russia who sold them to Iraq in the first place), thus the disappering act was complete and no one in the US government had anything fresh to report.
PJ
…And Cliff is still a [edited by CJ].
Terri
Yeah I have to agree with you there PJ, he does fit that description! LOL! PJ is also very correct on evidence gathering techniques and how then it is determinded whether things go to trial or not. Bush chose the course he did based on the information he was given. Heck it was near a year later that the British, whom the information came from said that the information was faulty and not entirely true. By then, as PJ said, Saddam had more than enough time to dispose of the WMD’s that he still had in the country. Besides if you talk to the soldiers who were THERE in the initial phases of the invasion of Iraq, they’ll tell you up front that WMD’s and the components to make them were and still ARE there, just not in the quantities initially believed.
Terri
Wow! Cliff backpedaling? I think he was pretty clear when he made that comment, crystal clear even. I’d say it’s probably the only “clear” thing I’ve seen that he’s written yet. I think we all understood exactly what he meant and you’re right, he showed his “true colors” with that statement.
Esoterik
Let’s just call it a John Kerryism. “It was a joke, and I didn’t tell it properly. I apologize for blowing the joke, but not for being a [edited by CJ]. OK?”
“It was a hypothetical in context of sarcasm.” – yeah, sure.
Ya know what, say what you say, say what you mean, and mean what you mean. Be a man about it. It’s OK, really! That’s what being an American is all about. Embrace your right to be an A-hole, don’t lay a big stick bomb and then try to kick sand over it. There is no litter box big enough for that!
Terri
Amen!!!!
Karen
Maybe Cliff is John Kerry’s speech writer??
sue
Karen, I don’t think he writes the speeches, just the jokes!
sue
OOOPS!! I think he writes for Barbara Boxer too!
Terri
Hahahahahaha! If he’s anyone’s speech writer, I sure hope he learns how to spell better soon., or we just might be supporting him while he’s standing in the unemployment line. Hmmmmmmmm
Gunther
PJ and Terri; I appreciate your perspective but it doesn’t wash. He is the Commander in Chief, does the buck stop there, or not?
My background is as a mariner, in civilian service, spent a lot of time on the North Pacific. Bad place, one must always be on guard and wary, not many opportunities to be saved. Competency in a skipper is MANDATORY. Anyone who makes descision like Bush did with obviously faulty information who was a skipper, as soon as the boat was tied and docked, I went looking for a job. Thyis beside the point.
As The CIC, Bush operates as any skipper does in Maritime Law, whatever happens on your watch, on your ship, no matter who is at fault, YOU the skipper are AT FAULT! No if, ands, or buts. It is clear. Was Hazelwood driving the Exxon Valdez when it ran aground? No. Was he responsible for all the errors his crew made? You Betcha.
That is what command is about, not being spoonfed information and then when you run aground blaming people that they mislead you. You are the skipper, it is YOOR job to know the crew, and can anyone incompetent. If as a skipper you can’t do this, you can’t be skipper for long. Somebody will kick your ass on the ocean if you risk their lives through ignorance and stupidity.
The job I undertook is statistically the worlds most dangerous, and people who make excuses, and blame others are one trippers, and the hell off the boat. The Bering Sea doesn’t take excuses, and neither should any American soldier risking his neck and his family risking their TREASURE!
Bush is one skipper I would throw down on, lock the bastard in his state room, and assume control of the ship. Because I can.
Gunther
As a side note, it is really very good news that a NAVY MAN has taken over the running of the military in Iraq.
Spend some time on the ocean(24-7) and you realize, human enemies aren’t diddly to what the SEA will dish out without a warning, without negotiation, without temperence, without compassion, and there are no weapons to stop it, a man can only run for safety, or PRAY!
Men of the sea in command don’t blame others, they are MEN! No other men should follow a man that has these character flaws.
Terri
So what exactly is your point? Bush TAKES responsibility for the things that went wrong, for the fact that things in Iraq didn’t go as they’d hoped. I have yet to hear him say it was the fault of the CIA, FBI, Interpol or anyone else. Unlike the Intern Boinking President, just previous to him, who felt it better to had a problem with taking responsibility for his actions, on more than one occasion.
Terri
Okay let me rephrase my last sentence, since I didn’t check it before I hit post. It should read:
Unlike the Intern Boinking President just previous to him, who felt it was better to NOT take responsibility for his actions on more than one occasion.
Gunther
Are you kidding Terri? He only recently mentioned that he is responsible. the rest of the time, he has not once admitted he made any errors. Even if he didn’t, his staff did, and that is HIS responsibility. He is not a responsible commander, it took him 6 YEARS to grow up and get with program. His staffs’ mistakes are HIS! Refer to then maritime post.
I didn’t know we were talking about Clinton, but as long as monica was of age, Clinton can very well boink who he wants. His problem was lying about it under Oath. I have always wondered what would have happened if he just said he boinked her reeeeal good and liked it. Then there would have nothing anyone could have done, As it is, this was his flaw, and perjury is a felony, so Article 2 section 4, of the Constitution covers that.
Terri, don’t you like consensual sex? Isn’t having sex a family value? I mean, you can’t have genetic families without it. So clinton got in on a little scrumping on the side, not my business, but the lying is. Nobody died for that character flaw, though his lying and such did get us into Bosnia, and yep, soldiers are still there.
Bushs’ incompetence got people killed, and on my boat you are the F*** OFF. I have even chartered float planes in good weather to remove someone.
Gunther
What’s my point? Bush is crappy skipper, that dodges his DUTY, and for 6 years refused to act like a MAN, and answer his detractors, left, right, and center, and assume responsibilty. It was all somebody elses mistake, or a simply saying that disaster is progress and what not.
He has never admitted a single mistake, and hundreds of thousands of people are dead, and so as a crew member of the good ship USA, he should keel hauled in my view. Mutiny against a dangerous skipper is not a crime if it can be demonstrated to be true, and we have the goods on this swab.
CriticalFacts
Got to agree with Gunther! Bush only accepted “responsibility” for his most awesome adventure in the middle east when it became obvious to even the most ardent supporters of the man that responsibility must lie at the heels of the “Decider.” But the thing that bothers me is the only punishment Bush will receive for his horrendous decisions is to go down in the history books as the worst president to grace the white house (plus maybe going insane realizing the havoc he caused worldwide).
Hawk
How has Bush taken responsibiltiy? He said it in a speech. BFD. His actions belie his rhetoric. Instead of taking the advice of his generals he fires them. He refuses to attempt any diplomacy and he comes up with a plan that has already failed six months ago. And while I don’t respect what Clinton did, we are not in this position because of Clinton.
The evidence of WMDs was not overwhelming. It was believed by some agencies and not by others. When congressmen who were voting on the authorization for force asked to see the intelligence they were told it was classified. The fact that they had the proper security clearance was not important. It has become apparent that intelligence was politicized to support a plan, which is wrong. We have the largest intelligence force in the world, the correct action should have been to find out the truth, not invade.
CriticalFacts
Hawk,
Right on. BTW, the only reason that folks point the finger at Clinton is to deflect the debate from true substance. If these same folks could say something positive about Bush, they would. But where, as here, there is little that anyone can say to put Bush in a positive light, the best they can do is go back and revisit the fact that Clinton poked an intern and then lied about it.
Bottom line, Bush had an agenda, and distorted and twisted the available intel to support that agenda; and now, people are dying or suffering horrendous injury because of it. These few remaining Bush supporters should be ashamed but, instead, they steadfastly refuse to admit to being hoodwinked by their Repug Savior.
Gunther
Critical, what are you going to do to him, that he would understand? He is a sociopath, and for our own sakes getting mad and punishing him is useless. Like spanking, “this is going to hurt me, more than it hurts you.”
In logging the word is CULL. Bush is CULL. That is wood that is 90%unsound(rotten), it sometimes comes to the mill in error. It is worse than useless, because it takes money and manpower to get rid of it.
So punishing bush is like punishing a rock, if you hit it, you hurt yourself. Better to just clear him off the landing(log receiving area) and pitch his CULL ASS back into the woods to rot.
Cpl M
So how about you two offer a plan that will finish getting the Iraqis on their own feet and keep America secure now that you two have taken the comment thread off topic and completed your “I hate BushCo!” circle jerk.
sealpatriot
Bush didn’t make the case for Iraq. He looked at the case and determined whether it was a justifiable situation to react to. For those of you talking about whether he lied or misinterpreted facts, why don’t you be men and pick up your responsibilites as citizens because you need to realize that none of the intel handed to him was recently investigated at the time. It was all gathered in the years between the end of the first gulf war to the year 1999. You guys need to realize none of the intel was coerced or forged by the president because all the papers, letters, debates, and phone calls in the lead up to the Iraq war were all nonpartisan, and in fact they were also international. Bush didn’t lie about the WMD’s or in any case. Nor did he exaggerate the case for this war. Saddam didn’t destroy all of his weapons like the laws sanctioned against him ordered him to. He did use some of these weapons against his own people. Saddam even had people who were capable of using and making illegal weapons(the kind not used for defense). None of these were exaggerated nor were they false. In fact the most recent claim of Saddam having WMD’s wasn’t made by Bush or in fact Americans either. They were made by the British intelligence service in 1999. Where as our friends in the U.K. claimed that Saddam tried to buy fissile material in the country of Niger. This wasn’t made by Bush, and wasn’t proven to be forged papers until late 2004. Which these papers being forged isn’t enough sufficient evidence to prove it was based off of lies, because noone was able to prove it was a lie. Nobody was able to prove that it’s claim that Saddam could use Iraq’s underground tunnels to move his weapons to Syria. Which this statement is enough to prove it’s factual authenticity due to it’s depthe, coverage, and factual correctness. Damn, mom’s calling for dinner, talk to guys later, keep bringing up good points fellows, bye!
Gunther
Doesn’t matter, on another thread I made my point, he is the CIC and is responsible for the information he makes decisions on, it is his job to know, and accept responsibility for being, if he didn’t lie, he certainly did not perform due diligence. That is the burden of command. Letting him off the hook diminishes what it means to be CIC. If you can’t handle the risk and responsibility, then you are not fit for the job.
The buck stops here, as Trumann said, did a democrat have more sand than Bush?, I don’t think I need to answer that.
Gunther
being right or wrong…
Hawk
The yellowcake story in Niger was debunked prior to the President’s State of the Union address prior to the invasion. The line about it was actually stricken from the text and than put back in by Scooter Libby in the Vice President’s office. Well before 2004. The intel may not have been coerce or forged but it was cherry picked. Intel supporting the agenda was given priority over intel that did not.
In fact he did destroy almost all of his WMDs, what he failed to do was report it. He was scared of looking weak to his neighbors and enemies. This was a violation of the UN Security Resolution, but not grounds for war unless the UN votes to enforce its resolutions by war.
Cpl M
Once again I will tell all of you to stear the comments back on topic. Keep it off topic and I’ll close the comments. We have Open Briefing topics for this sort of stuff. How about I go make another one for you?
Gunther
What’s a [edited by CJ]?
sealpatriot
Sorry if this is bad to anyone here. Gunther, a [edited by CJ] is a [edited by CJ].
sealpatriot
I want to talk more about this topic, Hawk. However you have to tell me when or where because I want to respect CPL. M’s request not to politicize this particular discussion forum at ASP!
Hawk
Sealpatriot,
Post in the most recent open forum. I’ll find it as I’m sure others will.