A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
This is a follow-up to the Post about why we need to continue to support our troops.
Terri
Stress is a daily part of life in the United States. Every single one of us has to deal with stressful situations on a daily basis. Each of us handles those situations in different manners, whether it’s talking with a friend, with our spouse, confronting the situation head-on and taking care of the problem, some by simply just ignoring it and hoping it goes away. Some of us reach out for help when things begin to overwhelm us, others retreat into a shell, while others of us deal with stress in unhealthy manners, such as road rage, drug or alcohol abuse or possibly even abusing our children, our spouses or ourselves. Imagine having your daily stressors compounded in a War Zone. For our troops serving in combat zones, the stressors they face goes up tremendously. Not only do they continue to worry about the day-to-day things back home, but also they have many additional stressors to deal with. For some, this may be the first time they’ve ever been away from their home, from their families and they’re struggling to deal with being homesick. For others, they may be dealing with problems with co-workers or their command. To compound the problem, our troops are deployed in a hostile environment, where many times, they don’t know who the enemy is, where people are seeking out American Troops in order to kill them. They may have just come back from a firefight, where they watched their best friend get shot and killed. They may have had to make the decision to take the life of another person who was trying to kill them. They may have had to deal with the after effects of a suicide bomber walking into a crowded market and have had to see the mangled bodies of innocent men, women and children after such an attack. Maybe, they befriended a young Iraqi orphan, whom they know will have to remain in Iraq when their deployment is over. Our troops face a myriad of additional stressors, on top of the ones they dealt with before deployment and many of them struggle to make it day to day. Some get to the point where they don’t feel they have any recourse, they feel hopeless and helpless and don’t know how to cope with their additional stressors.
The military is recognizing that stress in the combat zone is a very serious problem and are putting more and more services in place to help combat this very real problem. If a soldier is struggling with PTSD symptoms, stress and depression, that soldier is not very mission ready. The availability of services in-theater ensures that stressed and depressed soldiers are able to address and deal with those issues and thus be able to better perform their duties. There are a myriad of services available for deployed soldiers, from psychiatric services, to Chaplains, to online resources. In July 2000 the DoD held the first Leaders and Operational Stress conference at Fort McNair, to address the issues that frequent deployments, military operations, rapid advances in technology, effect the mental health of the military members and how to best confront and treat these issues. At the time, Bernard Rostker, the undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness said, “Today’s armed forced face a full spectrum of 21st Century global challenges— non-traditional conflicts, frequent deployments and rapid advances in technology. These all impose significant strains on our service members. I think we can all agree that warfighting produces many hardships and dangers in combat. I also think we can agree a wide range of stressors accompany all our deployments.â€? Retired Army Lt General Walter F. Ulmer Jr at the same conference stated “We learned during the Gulf War that the Defense Department does not deal well with nontraditional issues such as deployment stress.â€? This conference addressed that issue. Sometimes, troops refuse to seek help for stress related issues, such as PTSD symptoms due to the stigma that they might be perceived as weak by their peers. Unfortunately some commanders have allowed that stigma to grow, by being insensitive to the needs of their soldiers, ignoring the signs of growing stress in their soldiers and when it’s brought to their attention, telling the soldier to “Suck it up and do their jobâ€? not realizing that by doing so, they’ve sent the message to their troops that they won’t support them in times of stress or assist them in getting help for symptoms that they are experiencing. Unfortunately, that sensitivity can lead to situations like that of SPC Crutchfield, who took his own life while serving in Iraq.
In 2005, the DoD funded a study to investigate the incidences of Combat related stress, PTSD and offer ways to best help the troops deal with these problems. According to one of the researchers, Jennifer Vasterling, PhD, not only are they conducting studies on how the troops are dealing with stressors while in combat, but also after they return home from the warzone, so that they know the best way to help them, once things have settled and their lives begin to get back to normal. Research says that the number of troops suffering from PTSD symptoms is very likely higher than what is indicated in polls that have been conducted. That is attributed to the fact that in the military, a stigma that still surrounds seeking mental health services in the military. Many troops said that the fear of appearing weak is the main deterrent to them seeking help. Because of this, the National Center For PTSD, National Center For PTSD has military specific information on their website, which provides internet based self-help intervention to aid military members in treating the symptoms of PTSD and allow military personnel to work by themselves and at their own pace to develop strategies for coping in responding to trauma. Therapists are available to assist the troops as well.
Recently, Lt. General Ray Odierno, the Commanding General of Fort Hood’s III Corps deployed to Iraq and took over as the Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps in Iraq at FOB Victory. While at Fort Hood, Lt General Odierno has been a strong supporter of programs designed to help our troops deal with combat stress, PTSD, domestic violence and sexual assault. Since deploying, Lt. General Odierno has taken that passion to the battlefield. He has made sure that the soldiers under his command, have access to mental health services, advocacy services, Chaplain services as well as support from their commanders. In the latest Phantom News, which is the III Corps newsletter in Iraq, published January 7, 2007, the problem of Combat Stress was highlighted. This article not only addresses the fact that the FOBs have Combat Stress Centers available for the troops to utilize and seek help, but also talks about a new website, Combat Stress Center, Combat Stress Center , that was created as another way for the troops to obtain help and information in dealing with Combat Stress. According to MSG James I McLeod, the mental health advisor for Iraq, 113th Combat Stress Company, 3rd Medical Command, Multi-National Corps, Iraq, “We were looking for an avenue to give soldiers to find information on stress without physically going to the combat stress teams if they want to be private about it.� McLeod, who has served 3 tours in Iraq, used information from his experiences to help in creating the website. When creating the website, in order to make it as helpful as possible for the troops it is designed to serve, Mental Health Advisors from all areas of Iraq, compiled a listed of some of the most common stressors that the troops are dealing with and attempted to address them on the website. These issues include but are not limited to predeployment, combat stress, relationship issues, problems back home, depression, suicidal thoughts, sexual assault and redeployment. The site provides the soldiers with the change to learn about these problems that they might be suffering from and how to deal with them. There are educational articles, videos about stress, information on physical fitness and how that can aid in dealing with stress and even a self-assessment guide. Included is information for commanding officers on how they should handle combat stress issues within their unit, in order to ensure that their soldiers are Mission Ready. Helpful links for both the deployed soldier as well as his or her family is available as well.
What can the troops do to help their fellow soldiers that might be suffering from stress related problems, depression or suicidal thoughts, and might not be reaching out for the help themselves? BE OBSERVANT! If you see someone suddenly acting differently, ask questions, reach out to them, and offer to help. Notify command that something’s wrong, that you’re worried about your fellow soldier. Give them the information on the Combat Stress Center website, accompany them to the Combat Stress Center on your FOB, go with them to the Chaplain. Don’t let them fall through the cracks like Spc. Crutchfield. Don’t let command tell them to “suck it up�, if you do, CALL the Combat Stress Center and let them know what’s going on with your fellow soldier and ask for their assistance. The resources are in place and there ARE people to help with these situations in the War Zone. Make posters for your Unit about the Combat Stress Center website and Combat Stress Center phone numbers. Encourage your fellow soldiers to use it. Everyone involved MUST be proactive to help avoid more suicides in Iraq, instead of reactive, when it’s too late to help. The problems can be greatly reduced, it’s up to everyone to make that happen.
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Hawk
The proposals to cut VA funding over the past 4 years have truly infuriated me. We claim to be at war, but we ask for no sacrifices. We cut taxes as well as cut benefits for the wounded. Part of going to war should be a national committment, a shared sacrifice. If the mission is not important enough to ask EVERYBODY to sacrigice, than it is not worth doing. Everybody should contact your representatives and senators and not only oppose the VA cuts, but ask for increased funding.
sue
wow hawk we agree on something. There is little sacrifice on the part of the individual American. Our society has become way too me based. If every one actually DID support the troops, and actually gave a damn about them, it would be a whole lot better.
CriticalFacts
I agree that war should be a shared sacrifice, but tax cuts and reduced VA funding are necessary for BushCo to continue to enrich themselves financially on the backs of common folk vis-a-vis the war on terror.
White Rose
I have some information about a conference coming up in February for those that suffer from PTSD. I will be posting something on this as soon as we get it all squared away.
Terri
That would be great Cindy. The more information on what help is out there, the better.
sue
Critical facts heres a little ditty you might like to take a look at while you are busy bashing Bush and running your mouth.
http://www.factcheck.org/article144.html
Gunther
The bush family personal fortune has gone from 200 million, to 4.5 BILLION in these 6 years. Maybe we can get the family to pony up some money for the VA.
Sue that is really misleading. The funding up because we have some 30,000 troops with no arms, eyes, or legs on disability. 27% is not nearly enough. It’s up 27% since we weren’t at war. Oh boy!
So since the war started we have increased funding of the VA 18 billion dollars a year. We spend more on fuel in Iraq than that, especially at 5 dollars a gallon. A tank holds 500 gallons, 2500 bucks, there is a cheap artificial limb.
Of course you will have to spend more on the VA as you create more disabled veterans, the stat is ridiculous, what are we to do leave ‘em to destiny?
If you factor out the costs of new patients the VA has to treat, and then what has to be paid out in disability for the rest of their lives, I am sure you will not come up with much of an increase, if ANY! these injured people are forever. At least some portion of that is accountable for inflation, and the absolutely insane costs of getting health care in this country. The VA has to buy drugs, and what they need for veterans at commercial market prices, a gimme here or there. WE are paying this no one else. It is another reason the war is to costly for what we stand to gain. Ridculous.
Hawk
Stats can always lie. What factcheck.org does not take into account is the increased enrollment in the VA over the past 6 years. It has nearly doubled. The VA has called the 2006 funding “Wholly inadequate.”
CJ
As a member of the American Legion (and probably the youngest, quietest person at the meetings), I see firsthand the promises broken by our government AND the Bush administration when it comes to our veterans. Our government sends us to fight wars. Some of us come home as we left, while others come home in pieces or not at all. It is the DUTY of our government to provide the BEST possible care available in this country, regardless of the price. If we’re willing to spend billions on fighting a war, we should be willing to spend billions to care for that fight it. Take health care away from illegal immigrants if you can’t find the money. As it is, they are treated better than many veterans and in many cases never have to spend a dime. Yes, I’m sensitive about this subject and our leadership, ALL OUR LEADERSHIP, is failing the American service member.
sue
CJ, I agree with you that there should be more spent on the VA. I think that the Congress should stop with the pork barrel crap and spend it on the people who really deserve it. I believe that Soldiers should be making a ton more money than politicians. I believe that the illegals shouldn’t get anything, that they show up to collect health care, college placements, college scholarships etc and they should be deported.
My reason for the link, was cf does nothing but bash this administration, and offers nothing else. Am I happy about all this, CJ YOU above all people know how I feel my dear friend. I’m just so tired of all the nasty comments. If you don’t like bush, big deal. Deal with it for another two years. I had to deal with Clinton, and will have to deal with the next person in the White House too. Republican or Democrat. Just quit the bashing all the time. It accomplishes nothing and it makes me not take anything you say seriously.
Terri
I have to agree that instead of welcoming the Illegal Aliens into our country, providing their education, providing welfare funds for them to live off of, and free healthcare, that money should all be put into making sure our Veterans and future Veterans are taken care of, every single bit of it.
CriticalFacts
Sorry, Sue.
However, I find it truly ironic that one who supports the troops as strongly as you do continually comes up with little fact snippets to place Bush in a positive light and shield BushCo from deserved criticism. In fact, BushCo has caused over 3,000 dead soldiers and thousands more soldiers seriously injured because of a personal agenda that went south from the gitgo and continues in that direction. To me, one who supports the troops would be madder than hell at the individual whose personal agenda generated the horrendous chaos our soldiers now confront.
sue
CF, look again. I was giving you a contrast. Where were you when Clinton was destroying the country? I don’t remember hearing you saying all this stuff while our country was at war then. A war that HE got us into, LIED us into, to cover up his dirty deeds. Wanna discuss the missing Whitewater papers that Hillary hid? Wanna talk about Sandy Burger and his subversive activities? My point is that we could go round and round about what arse holes we elect to office. It gets us no where. It does NOTHING but HURT the troops in harms way. All your bashing of the war effort and calling it quagmire and civil war and all the negative things just isn’t making it any better at home and isn’t helping our guys over seas. If you want to do something positive, then DO something. Don’t just cut down our guys morale and offer nothing else. I have been listening to this crap for 6 years now. Arent YOU sick of it? I sure am. This blog is supposed to be about the Soldiers. Cant you come up with something positive to say about how you can make things better for them that doesnt include Bush is a liar or what ever in the same sentence???
Terri
You know, I posted this topic to HIGHLIGHT some of the changes that ARE being made to help our troops deal with the stressors while in the War Zone as well as here at home when they return. The topic of VA cuts does fit into that. The VA system is FAR from perfect, but CF were you aware that some of the cuts that are currently taking place, were actually voted on and put into effect during Billy Boy’s term in office. As with many government things, the changes are usually set to take effect over a several year period and sometimes that extends into the next President’s term of office. Quite frankly, I’ve not seen one politician yet who has the interest of THE PEOPLE in mind, but instead they’re busy trying to figure out what they can do to line their pockets with as many “goodies” at the expense of the American Public as possible.
Gunther
Hey, it is a crying shame. I cannot imagine anything more repulsive than this treatment of Veterans. I can, but the dead are buried, but the wounded live on. There are worse things than death. We will support you dammit, if we have to tear Washington DOWN! It is the least we can do for sending soldiers anywhere, right or wrong.
In the devotion to service to country our soldiers stand to lose their lives, and risk psychologically the scars of killing others, good or bad, and see their friends and comrades suffer the misfortune of death and maiming.
I don’t care who you support or defend this is a total failure, and no amount of who did what in prior admins can excuse what is not being done now. It is a bi-partisan level of… I really cannot describe. No matter what, the only excuse any of our leaders have, is that maybe they fell into a coma 3 years ago.
If we have troops serving in something so important, then treatment of veterans should be unconditional. You should have to pay for ABSOLUTELY nothing.
Since this war began McDonnel Douglas, Boeing, Marietta, Exxon,BP etc. have seen stock prices go up through the roof, in some cases 300%. They make money off your blood, and our sweat and tears. This is so unacceptable it makes me SHAKE!!
I realize that you have had conflicts with lefties on your blog. Drop IT, we are all getting screwed and this is the manner of divide and conquer. This money you are not getting, and we are spending, is being pocketed by ASSHOLES!! Rich ASSHOLES! The more we fight one another, the more they eat the very life out of us. We are small, but many, and every dog, has his day
So many people are angry, and have no outlet that conflict between ourselves is inevitable. Stop it. Make it work, or the jackals will eat us all.
Reassess this war, acknowledge that if the government cannot provide for you as a injured veteran, what in the HELL do we think it would do for the people of Iraq? HONESTLY, look at it!!
I am a sworn American citizen, I was not born here, but my children were. I am ashamed, and angry, and fearful that such a fate could befall MY SON, when he is of age, and heeds the call. I won’t let it go. The soul of America the lives in me, and DAMMIT, somebody right here in the US of A, is going to PAY!!
Don’t take it out on illegals, take out on the BASTARDS that hire them, and a government that would shrift you, and favor them. They are simply being utilized to DIVIDE us, in the english way, so we can be consumed in bite sized morsels. FIGHT THEM. Here in Co. if you are caught employing illegals, it is now a 25,ooo dollar fine, no ifs, ands, or buts. Get it going on in YOUR state(alipac.us).
Finally, the human prospect, what is it? I have spent a lot of time thinking about this while baiting gear in the Gulf of Ak. This country IS OURS!! WE OWN IT!! Once you stop following, you start to lead, just make sure you are leading others in the right direction. Follow your heart, but be open to the thoughts of others, as nobody is right all of the time, and differences are just that, differences, and there is no reason to leave this country to the people that are letting us all down.
Live free, or die.(New Hampshire) Those folks in New England they know America, you can be what you want, and even if you don’t like it, if it is lawful, then you get the benefit of the same when it comes to what you want. God bless the America I grew up with, this one needs an ass kicking, and we are the people to do it.
sealpatriot
So what if the preisdent’s family is rich? Why do stupid people always have to attack rich people? How much money you have doesn’t determine anything. It hardly constitutes as proof of someone being corrupt, selfish, greedy, or bad. As far as Bush’s criticism is concerned, don’t hammer down on Sue for trying to bring up positive things about Bush, because all you Bush bashers specify the things wrong with him. Just because someone decides to be more vocal on their praise than their criticism of a leader in a closed minded country where nobody can be caught in the middle doesn’t mean someone who still believes in that person thinks they are perfect in everyway. You think that just because some people in this site decide to praise Bush on the things he does do that are good(and yes there are tons of good things about him both economically and governmental). People who defend Bush are no different from you because them trying to find positive things about his presidency are absolutely no different from those of you who CHERRYPICK facts and data to slander Bush. How could anyone who is trying to defend a point of perspective give anyone who might disagree any leighway when those who disagree are always the first ones to attack the one with the right to speech? Just watch the view if you want to see what I mean. Of course those of us who will defend the president will be vocal about the good things about him, because those of you who want to step on Bush like a doormat will dwell on all the negatives about him. It’s called rebuttling and last time I checked that was perfectly legal, respectful, honest, and by all means…necessary. Believe it or not, but most of president Bush’s supporters do have criticism for Bush. It’s just when these people rebuttle the bad things you say about Bush, you are quick to assume that the person who disagrees with you is narrowminded. Just like you! As far as what is being done about soldier’s returning home from service with mental problems. It’s great that America as a community and government is doing something for these people to get them back on track or at least find the light at the end of the tunnel, but it would still be insufficient. Since there is noway it would be enough to help every single soldier coming back home with problems. Some soldier’s know they have a problem mentally, but they keep it to themselves. Though this isn’t a telltale sign of impending disaster, they can still wind up hurting physically and emotionally. However, the war or the president are rarely at fault, given some soldier’s have emotional problem because of their pride in what they do, and nobody listens to them because they are too busy slandering each other and playing politics. So because of people like MilMom and Cliff these brave hearts are never heard. Strange, since we live in a country that provides us a mouth that isn’t hungry nor silent(even for the mute or the deaf who have trouble speaking). I know so because I take part in welcoming warriors home and they do feel that this country doesn’t really care about them or what those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice have achieved. There is no way this feeling doesn’t take part in unhappy soldiers. Just remember the Vietnam vets you and the ineducated John Kerry neglected. This is for all of the hinge vote Americans who are in the minority. Your not closedminded for disagreeing with others even when they say you are. They blow the negatives out of proportion so we are left as canon fodder for the slander rounds they volley at us. Left to defend someone whose reputation may not be your most favorite, but doesn’t deserve the fate their challengers desire for them. I absolutely hate it when those who call me closedminded think they aren’t. I have to press on the facts that back my beliefs because they push for everthing against it. If that is wrong Hawk and Gunther like you claim it is on us Cherry picking. I suggest you stop first. Nobody else here but you is in control of these debates, because you start them and can direct them anywhere you want. So you control the free speech of those who disagree with you by driving the debate. How do we Cherry pick or show too much of a bias when those of you like MilMom or Cliff dance around us in circles with words. I enjoy a good slandering, especially if its from my own opponents. CJ and CPL. M, we need some democracy on ASP, more so than Iraq or in any of the 76 nations we lend our hands to. For a matter of fact, we need it in the government. No wonder why opposing views never get accepted. MadLibs and Radcons are always running us like a plantation!
Hawk
Sealpatriot,
I try very hard not to make ad hominem attacks on other posters here. However I thought part of the purpose of this site was to debate differing viewpoints. I believe that if a war is worth fighting it is worth funding. And the costs of the war do not end on the battlefield. It should be for life and not depend on whether the soldier was injured in war or not, it is part of the committment the country makes when we ask people to fight. Does it mean taxes might have to be raised? Yes.
If you think that challenging your viewpoints is the same as calling you closeminded, you’r wrong, though it may be true. One of the vices of partainship is closemindedness and that is on both sides. If this site is merely for cheerleading the administration and not for open honest debate, I’ll leave and go someplace else, but i kind of like it here.
Remember, “It is easier for a camel to go through the Eye of the Needle, than a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.” Profiteering is evil.
Again, everybody should contact there congressman and demand more funding for the VA.
sealpatriot
I will contact my Congressman Joe Baca immediattely. I wasn’t hoping to attack you. I hope you don’t feel I did, but there was statement made by Gunther towards Sue that I wanted to speak against. I know we aren’t here to cheerlead the administration, but for me criticism might be at a totally different perspective than yours. For me I criticize my government locally, state, and national to try and help them do better. I have already been trying to contact Bush about some topics that I won’t politcize with this reply. I got replies of about 3 out of 5 letters. My total is about between 20 to 25 letters. Personally, I saw you, Gunther, and Sue going at it so I wanted to level it out by joining. No hard feelings I hope!
sealpatriot
I have sent my Congressman a some mail.
Gunther
What Sue posted is misleading, and she backed off immediately when I made my 1st post. My post has nothing to do with her personally. I can sorta tell she loves our pres. I don’t.
Since he is basically running this war unilaterally I leave him largely responsible. Many of the rich assholes I refer to are not American, there are plenty of contractors we are paying that are foreign,Bush is not what he says he is. He is the main cause of our ongoing failure in Iraq. He cannot adapt quickly enough and has a penchant for concrete thinking. He is inflexible. In a word stupid. Because what he does.
CJ basically backed up what I had to say. I am not attacking rich people, I am attacking corporate assholes that in collusion with government flunkies are costing us a fortune, and under-providing for veterans. I made no ad homonim attacks, I just said Sues’ post is misleading and it was, nothing personal.
I love a spirited lively debate, but the reaction here is pretty wimpy. Tell me what our pres has done to more effectively bring this war to a success.
I have been waiting. He’s a disgrace.
Actually smart people are saying that the Bush family are profiteering, I think elementary school children can see the connection between profits and war once shown it.
The Bush family has a very shady history, from prescott bushs’ (HWBs’ DAD) His assets and business were seized by the US government in ’42 because he was still doing business with the nazis. His business was siezed under the Trading with the Enemy Act passed upon our entry into the war, WW2.
Neil, W’s older brother was president of the Silverado savings and loan in CO. when it was bilked for about 1 billion dollars. The taxpayers covered the failure, many of the loans went to neils’ friends. They were never repaid.
Then there is neils’ penchant for whoring, did you see any of his divorce trial?
He was to be prosecuted by the then States Attorney General of Colorado, Gail Norton, for the Silverado case. I was in the Denver area then.
Evidence was mysteriously lost, neil walked. Oddly enough, Gail Norton was appointed by W to be head of the Dept. of Interior. which signs the leases over for mining and drilling.(are not the bush oil and gas people?)
Since that time Colorado is being drilled and trashed like nothing anyone has ever seen. Right now, I live where it is happening, Co will never be the same. Most of the companies doing the work are foreign, the biggest from Canada.
Marvin, the youngest bush brother, is a convicted felon. That’s why you don’t hear about him.
Then there is the old history of bushs’ Moms’ family going back to 1776. Her family were Boston blue bloods that were licensed by the crown to transport goods from the colonies back to england. They owned the ships,
American colonists were not permitted to finish manufacture anything, it all went on these ships to be made into finished goods, by wage slaves and their children in england. Then they were sent back here to be sold to Americans at profit.
When the revolutionary war broke out, her ancestors didn’t support the Patriot. They were tories,loyal to england. Owning ships they were able to escape, and they were also very rich, and were given whatever they needed from england.
BUSH IS A TORY!!! Wake up. It is why we are being financially pillaged by foreigners. The reality of this will be known, in a couple of years.
Are you not slightly intersted that the bush fortune has gone from 200 m illion, to 4.5 billion, in 6 years? That is drug dealing ratios folks, again, please look into it.
Terri
You know what you say may very well be true, but the very same type of corruption and profiteering off the middle class and poor in America holds true with the Kennedy family. I mean, think about it. Teddy Kennedy a young MARRIED senator from Massachuchets is drinking and driving with a young White House intern in his car, because of his drunken state, he drives off into a river and the young lady dies from drowning. Was he punished for that, like any of us would have been? Hardly! The Kennedy fortune bought him out of that one. Unfortunately, the political scenery is rife with corruption on BOTH sides, Republican and Democrat. As I always say, I haven’t seen a politician yet that has the American public’s interest at heart, but instead is in it for themselves and how much they can scam us for.
sue
Gunther, you do not know me, you do not know my politics. Because I am sick and tired of listening to ad nauseum BS that is expressed against the President, and against the War, which hurts the troops, and expressed it as such if you bothered to read what I wrote, does not make me a Bush lover, or supporter. It doesnt even make me a Republican. When I cast my ballot in November, I don’t remember seeing you or any one else there to see who I voted for.
Gunther
All of the above is factual, there is no BS. We are being ruled by a group of tory criminals that are selling us out.
Sue humor me and consider it. If you are sick and tired (you sound it) don’t read my posts. No disrespect but the ego running a bit hot today? I am not talking about you, and have not attacked you in any way, support whomever you want. That is America. You support your way, I support mine. To me ending the Bush story can only help our heroic troops, I gain more respect fro them daily as I realize they do duty for Country, not a criminal president.
Let me make it easier for you Sue, since you are really a cyber person. I am not responding to you, nor am I casting any aspersions on your value system
Terri, I didn’t know we were talking about the kennedys, whom I very much dislike. I am a degreed historian apart from being a mariner, if you wish me to go on about the blatant criminality of that branch of the American elite, I will. I agree with you about the bi-partisan nature of this filth that rules our Country. I only focus on Bush because he is the current president, and it is an abomination to have a person at the helm of our country. (I won’t call him a man, any more than the drunken driver, which BTW w has been convicted for also). So we won’t have to go over it, I can’t stand clinton either.
What I would like to impart to you is that both these criminal families are ON THE SAME TEAM. The one that rips us off for their elite buddies. They do the job of dividing us for the elite here. libs love the drunk, and Sue loves the dry drunk( I think) the effect of this is to divide us and let us be robbed.
So who did you vote for Sue? BTW, are you hot? You have a hot streak in you, that I can tell. Send me a picture, I think I love you. I’m availaible, scrote and all.
Old Daddy Kennedy is not a gun runner though, he ran liquor during prohibition, bless his heart. The rumors of the bush family and the cocaine connection has plenty of evidence. Getting rid of bush can only help the troops, we need a person of dynamic action, this is hardly Bush.
My point is that ted and hwb go golfing together and laugh all the way to the bank in Switzerland, with our money. HA HA, it isn’t funny. Being a mindless partisan is what they are banking every little person should be.
Keep it up all, never mind those men behind the curtain.
Sue is this an open site, or a cheerleading section for our current policies?
Terri
The point I was trying to make Gunther, is this: ” I haven’t seen a politician yet that has the American public’s interest at heart, but instead is in it for themselves and how much they can scam us for. ” As I stated before and used Teddy Kennedy as an example. I’m sure I could go on and on, finding examples in both the Democratic and Republican parties. I never have been one to trust what ANY politician says. They always seem to have their own personal agendas that don’t coincide with what’s best for the Nation and it’s people. That being said, I agree with Sue when she states that the constant complaints, criticisms and hatred direct towards the War in Iraq and the President does nothing but degrade the morale of the troops. Watch any given day of News and it’s plain that they rarely cover anything positive about what our Troops are accomplishing over there, but instead focus on the “illegality” of the war, etc, etc. I’ve talked to plenty of our Troops over there who just once would like to see in the media, a positive story about what they’re accomplishing over there, without the political bullshit.
PJ
I’m sorry ladies, but CJ is right. I haven’t seen any president who gave a crap about any of us since the 18th centrury. As far as arguing the fine points of who’s right and who’s wrong, who cares. As it has been since the 1700′s it’s every man/woman for themselves. The groups who band together to accomplish change and aid their own, such as Soldier’s Angels, etc., are the only ones that count. The rest of the politicians, commentators and pundits are a waste of skin.
Gunther
The troops have to put up with it, this is a constitutional representative democracy, and this very thing, like it or not, is what they are fighting for.
As people are told when very young, at least I was, how you allow what people say and how it affects you is up to you. It is part of being an adult.
I very much dislike the constant cacaphony of the militaristic mind set and comments I encounter every day, but I know where I live, AMERICA!, and I have choices thank GOD!
a) I can choose to ignore it.
b) I can let it get to me, and let it damage my outlook.
c) or I can actively confront within the boundries of social etiquette and the law, the people that promote things that I believe are ruining the Country.
If the troops can have their commitment and morale challenged to their detriment, by people that disagree or mock the leaders they like, whose problem is that? It is not mine or any other civilians, except for those who wish to combat it. This is what you are doing on this blog. It is the first amendment of our Constitution. There is NO controlling that in The U S of A.
What did you think, it was going to be easy? That people being killed, American or enemy would be tolerated without review? Never going to happen. When a war is just, there is very little of what we are experiencing now. Take note.
This is the heart and soul of America right here. If the troops do not like what the public says about how they are being directed that is their volunteer lot in life. We do not force people into conscription anymore. Keeping up morale is the job of military leaders and those who support the cause.
To expect Americans with the rights they possess, and the purse strings for military activity to be quiet is UNAMERICAN! You are not permitted it.
The military is under the direction of the civilian command, and the 1st amendment guarantees civilians the right to express their opinions whether the troops like it or not.
When involved in unpopular causes this is the militarys’ lot in life. We the people decide if, when, and how you conduct war. That is AMERICA! We are not changing it to protect how you feel. Those unable to deal with it, need to find other jobs in protected civilian life when their hitch is up.
That is all.
sealpatriot
President Bush is not stupid. He scored a 1207 on his SAT’s and maintained a 3.8 GPA in Harvard. Which he didn’t buy out his teachers or use his dad’s money or family name to acheive. No he is not accountable for a war that was waged through non-partisan cooperation in the capital. He is not responsible for the decision made by Congress to issue the White House a Joint Resolution to Authorize military force in Iraq. He did not Cherry pick facts from the Forged papers that he didn’t forge for this war since he didn’t get it till about February in 2003 which is after his State of the Union address. He didn’t claim the British said Saddam tried to buy papers from Niger. His part of the speech about the papers he was suppose to receive by British Intelligence was not Cherry Picked to suit his agenda. Saying Saddam sought after Yellowcake from Niger in his State of the Union Address does not constitute as a lie nor is it Cherry picking because that was a summary statement of the overall document. He is not responsible for our failures as an ignorant and arrogant nation . Since we are at fault for our high defecit, our bad environmental knowledge, and our habit of consuming beyond our means of production. He is accountable for the failed plans for Iraq, but not the deaths of those who were brutally murdered whether it be an ambush on troops or a suicide bomb attack on civilian recreational areas. He does adapt the plan for the situation from changing special ops, to the equipement used on the ground. He makes sure the plans the generals come up with are clear to the troops on the ground as they wait for orders. He wakes up at night to do this since night for us is day for people in the regions our forces operate in. He does need to beef up funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs but should also beef up talks about troop success. He needs to talk more about how the soldiers have removed over 3/4′s of the madrasas in the 48 nations in that region that has wahabis. He should stress to the American public that the 300,000 strong Naval fleet conducts enough humanitarian aid missions equal to circling the globe 7 times every 6 months. We need to realize that all Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Djibouti, Azerbaijan, Kenya, Chad, and the other 69 that I can’t remember have provided us with intel on locations of terror cells, suicide bombing groups, and madrasas. Iraq has had families send a son or father either blow himself up, join the Mujahideen or any other terror cells within a third world nation, or simply join a madrasas to be brainwashed into thinking a martyr is someone who kills himself and others. Saddam did help increase tensions between Shia and Sunnis in his country. He instigated fights through framing responsibility on the other sect when he killed there loved ones and friends. Today the number of Shia and Sunni trying to mend division wounds is increasing. The president leads these movements. I could never say it is enough since these things can happen at better rates and with a stronger American economy backing it up. His mess up? Yeah, that’s news to anyone out there wearing a uniform.
Gunther
Yes he is Sealpat, he initiated the conflict, congress approved, he is the most responsible as the executive. This is his war. He went to war with the congress he controlled and didn’t get the job done in time or any time frame he and his staff stated it would take. It is his fault, refer to my maritime law post. Whoever is at fault does not matter in command situations, the skipper takes the fall.
1207 on the SAT, 3.8 at Harvard, great. I’m going with Forest Gumps Mom with regard to Bush.
Stupid is, as Stupid does.
I know many a brilliant friend that has conducted themselves with monstrous stupidity, usually had to do with women, but that is another subject. Emotionalism can lead even the smartest people to stupid behavior. I do have to add that bush was a heavy alcoholic, to the extent that his mother, and his wife gave him ultimatums that he quit or they would both dump him. Scary, especially the barbara part.
The religious conviction part is also troubling, if someone told me that God was talkiong to them on my boat, I would force an IMMEDIATE drug test. Even if clean I would likely find a way to remove them. I cannot afford delusional people in the environment I work in. I doubt in the environ our troops operate it is any different.
Sealpat don’t take command if you feel the way you do. I have skippered the Gulf and the Bering. As skipper no matter who agrees with you on what to do in times of crisis, in the end, it is ALL, on you. There is no one to blame but you, it is done for the expediency of society that way, so there isn’t this finger pointing, like what you are doing now, even if it wasn’t really your fault, IT IS !
If a person cannot accept that, they cannot, or should not, assume command, as it isn’t about ego, or who was right and wrong after the disaster. You took the job knowing that whatever happens, it WILL be your fault.
Gunther
The alcoholic part Seal, would refer to whether he still had the brain at 48, that he had at 17, when he took his SAT. Lot of liquor between now and then.
Gunther
So much to address the deficit, rep congress, bi-partisan approval. As executive Bush get sthe blame for deficits.
Do me a favor, read the book Dollars for Terror, by Jacque Lefebvre. It will tell you in detail where the money for the madrasas came from. It was written in 92, way before this. It is a fascinating read. I will tantalize you with the hint that Empires need enemies to function, and the work is completely annotated and footnoted. Quite a bombshell. As a soldier, you need to know. None of this BTW has anything to do with Bush Jr., however Daddy has a story, and it must be read….
sealpatriot
Since when did I want to take command? Since when is drinking something you can use to claim somebody is stupid? I don’t drink but my dad does. So does my college professor. So do the kids at aplha delta who are the honors kids. They probably drink every chance they get, since drinking is apart of fraternity clubs anyway. If you were in the navy, chances are you drank too(not saying you are or were)! No, Bush does not control Congress since the powers of the three branches are under balance of power. Also the fact that ther has never been a big enough defference between democrat and republican to set a big enough margin for an incumbent’s party to win every single vote. Republicans had the largest sweep in 2004 than any election in history but they couldn’t get abortion banned or gay marriage. Let alone start a war unless there was a bipartisan bond that made the support large enough to issue the white house a joint resolution for military action. Since every single Congress in history has never had a division margin larger than 7 percent and there are the balance of powers then on what ground does the president have control of Congress when it is a seperate and independent branch of the government? Especially when the required vote is 2/3′s of both houses all while both major parties only hold about 40 percent. With those requirements and those percentages, the only way the president can have enough grounds on congress is if his party won about 55 percent of the seats. Which never has and never will happen, because the people won’t let it and they have the most power with the least amount of strings attached. Along with the fact that neither major party has never even held more than 50 percent of the seats. That would probably be because of the fact that there are like 8 other parties most people have never heard of unless you’re in it.
sealpatriot
No, according to Brillig.com the government’s part of the defecit is 8.5 trillion. Which is a small part given that our total defecit is about 47.6 trillion. The military spending for this war or any war in history doesn’t really play a part in our overall defecit, since the military never goes past our purchasing power parity. In fact they only spend about 4.5 percent of it.
Gunther
Agreed about the deficit, as bad as it is the war is, it a drop in the disaster bucket. We are a profligate people.
I didn’t claim to know if you want command it was a guide reference, should have said, “if one wants to…” Believe me, I love just being Jake, the hired deckhand, no worries, but the more you know, the more it falls to you when the S*** hit the fan, I fall right into takin over, it’s automatic.Then you know its all going to land on you if it goes wrong. It is what high living is ALL about. Have to be a player.
Bush is flawed, aren’t we all? I have so much more respect for him than I did since he asumed personal responsibility in recent weeks, that’s all I want, now I can possibly move forward with him, give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he is growing through all this, none of us is ever done, we hope. We have a better chance now than we ever did, it is a psychological thing to me.
I agree, he is just a man, a better one now since his acceptence of that command perogative, ultimate responsibilty. The only man that ruled the ROOST in our history, was Andrew Jackson, Man!, only way to decribe that MAN, is that he was a force of Nature, something like the sea, bastard made us free, doubt we would be America without him. The brits FEARED him. Who didn’t?
The fact no one can truly take over the country is a testament as to how truly visionary our founding fathers were. It’s still working, we must strive to change NOTHING! Except this crazy deficit spending, everyone, not just government. If I can’t buy it outright, I don’t, never buy anything on credit unless I absolutely have to.
Hey I drink, and have consumed too much for too long, at times. That is closing now. Constant drinking will destroy your brain and Bush was a heavy partyer, no doubt, I don’t condemn him in any way for this, he is free to do it, but when and if it interferes with your job, and causes permanent damage….. I work with alcoholics a lot. You can tell when they have tipped it too far, I mean long term damage. Sad. I control it when it becomes an issue with crew. That said I just love and unrestrained good time party with ALL the fixins!!! After taking on the Ocean and cooning the fish, why the hell not?
I want everyone to be that free, it takes discipline, forgiveness, pluck and luck. Maybe that is how to win this thing. Keep up SealPatriot, you are a Seal then aren’t you? You know the Sea then, it’s no trifle.
Hawk
The reference to the yellowcake was removed from an October 2002 speech because the intelligence could not be verified and it was alleged to be a forgery. Maybe absolute proof was not gotten until March 2003, it was still so dubious, and the administration knew it, that it should not of been in the speech.
And i will need documentation of the 3.8 GPA. All I was able to find is that he graduated from Yale with a 2.35, far below the standards for admittance into Harvard Business school and his GPA at Harvard was below the average of 3.8.
And what do you mean by the statement that the governments part of the debt is 8.5 trillion. Whose part is the other 39 trillion?
sealpatriot
George W. Bush took philosophy, history, and political science his junior year. In which he did have two B’s and an A. He got a 94 in history which was his highest grade overall in his time in college. He got an 82 in philosophy and an 88 in political science. As far as the yellowcake papers from great Birtain were concerned. The closest siting he made to it in his 2003 State of the Union was when he said British Intelligence found evidence that Saddam sought significant amounts of uranium from Africa. The government here didn’t know what to expect when it came to the British Intel since noone knew if it was a letter or if it was a report. In fact Richard Butler(I don’t care who’s side he’s on cause he’s still credible) stated that state of the union address was not exaggerated and was carefully kept from being blown out of proportion. Those papers may be forged, but forged doesn’t mean written up from the top of someone’s head. It means that it was copied. So if this paper isn’t an official piece then there is definately a paper with similar outlines that is official and not a forgery. Which is true given that British Intel had another paper that wasn’t forged and did have content that corresponded with the forged one before it. So the paper was forged, but the intel was not discredited. In fact, the intelligence services of 46 other nations had gathered the same intel all while making the same claim that Saddam wanted(SOUGHT) Uranium from Africa and they did send us papers like the British did.
sealpatriot
You gotta go to the Brillig website. If you want google it just type in the National Defecit Clock and hit search. Then you go down the page under the debt clock and then you click on the link to the grandfather economic report. It’ll tell you what part of the debt is the responsibility of who. It’ll also explain why that group of people desrve certain pieces of the pie.
sealpatriot
forgot the second e in deserv, sorry.
Gunther
What history Seal? , it could not have been Middle Eastern, or International Relations.
sealpatriot
Probably wasn’t, but even if it were it wouldn’t help. Since so many of the kids walking out those kinds of classes really never have much of a difference in their perspective of anything. Most kids tend to have their lowest grades in these types of classes, and they also only take it because they have to in terms of GED’s! The ones that do feel like this class has changed their lives are the ones who walk out thinking the professor who taught it is like a god and they think they are at the apex of humanity just like the wacky kids who pal around professors like Professor Ward Churchill, or Kamau Kambone, or the 9/11 conspiracy professors, or the professors of the German universities during the furers’s rule! There’s more, but I can’t site them all at the top of my head. Besides, Bush still did good on that class regardless what kind, but since you don’t seem to notice that, I guess I’ll leave it there because it’s not a topic worth discussing unless you want a kindergarten debate instead!
sealpatriot
Hawk, did you find the time to check out that website with the debt clock? It is probably official, since it is updated by the Department of treasury or something like that.
Gunther
Well grade padding is long and upstanding tradition at the Ivys’. Have to make people look smarter than they really are before installing them in power positions.
Last time I checked most classes, the lowest grade was a B. Can’t have the elite looking stupid before they rule, that is reserved for when they actually do the job.
sealpatriot
That is only his junior year though. Maybe he did have lower in some years, and may have had some higher in others! is lowest grade in another year have been a C or myabe even lower. He possibly may have had higher than his 94, but I saw nothing higher than that.