A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
I came across a poll on the Army Times website today.
“A recent U.S. Central Command study found that 36 percent of Soldiers and 39 percent of Marines who recently served in the war zone believe torture should be allowed to gather information about insurgents. Should torture be acceptable when dealing with insurgents in the war zone?”
The choices: “Yes, it should be used to gather vital information; Yes, but only if it could save U.S. troops’ lives; No, torture is never acceptable; Don’t know/No opinion.”
Well, I placed my vote (No, torture is never acceptable) and waited for the results. To my disgusted surprise, I saw this:
Brothers and sisters in the military, listen to me. TORTURE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE!! The minute we begin thinking that it’s okay to torture people in the HOPES that we gain some valuable insight or intelligence is the minute we have no leg to stand on the next time one of our own is captured, kidnapped, or arrested. Torture will NOT save lives. Do it enough and I’m sure we’ll get something that may help us here and there, but in the long run it’s only going to get MORE Soldiers KILLED!!
Look at what happened after Abu Ghraib. After that story broke, the number of Soldiers killed in Iraq skyrocketed. Between January-March 2004 a total of 119 troops were killed by hostile fire. In the month of April 2004 ALONE approximately 135 troops were killed!! For those that don’t understand the connection, April 2004 is when the Abu Ghraib story broke. Now, Soldiers, you tell me how many lives torture saved!! TELL ME, YOU F****IN’ PSYCHOS!! YOU people, you sick 72% that voted YES in that survey are directly responsible for those 135 headstones! YOU people have killed my friends and my fellow troops. YOU have killed our brothers and sisters from other services. Yes, YOU who think that torture is okay.
You troops who think it is okay need to pull your heads out of your collective asses and WAKE UP!! And you’d better wake up NOW before someone YOU love is put six feet in the ground. I don’t care how sick, disgusting, rabid, soulless or hate-driven you think the enemy is. We NEVER sink to their level. By doing so, we give tacit approval to their beheadings, their tortures, and their maltreatment. I don’t know who these people are voting in this poll, but if I ever find you, I’ll make it my goal in life to have you removed from my military. And if I have to resort to torture to do it…..I’ll throw in the streets of Baghdad instead. See how far your torture gets you there!
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GailAlison
CJ, While I agree with you I have to ask…What do you consider torture? I saw something, I believe on youtube regarding water boarding. My understanding is that there are no clear lines as to what is & isn’t too much torture. A reporter actually went through the process and I have to say it was brutal. Where is the line drawn in regards to what is considered torture?
CJ
Torture is inflicting physical pain or a fear of one’s life when no fear should be present (ie: in captivity). It is also the threat of pain or the loss of life. A good interrogator doesn’t need to resort to torture or illegal techniques. I would say that torture is anything that you do to a prisoner that you wouldn’t want done to you in the same situation, but frankly I wouldn’t even want to be a prisoner so that definition is too broad.
Miss Ladybug
My two cents, but if we do it to our troops that go through SERE training, then it can be done to prisoners. Am I looking at that wrong??
CJ
I think you are, ML. We do it to your troops going through SERE training because we need to train them to handle torture at the hands of less civilized captors. The only troops that go through SERE training are those that are most susceptible to capture – generally SF troops. SERE training is fully voluntary and not a requirement in the military.
LL
Man, I think that is the most vehement post I’ve ever seen you write.
I shall take your word for the cause and effect of torture and say that you are right.
But you do realize that most of those people answering yes have probably seen combat and they are going with the basest emotions of “you hurt those I love so I will hurt you?” *sigh* I know they are professional soldiers and there are very few incidences of payback or torture, but I understand the fact that they answered honestly in the poll and if THEY were the ones doing the torture, they would be extremely hesitant to follow through.
miked918
CJ: Thanks for the clarification above re: what is acceptible.
I’ve never served, but have known that war is a terrible thing and should be avoided at nearly all costs — and ended as soon as possible. So, without maiming or killing, I had viewed torture as acceptible to gain valuable (yes, valuable can be defined different ways) information.
As you noted, however, a “good interrogator doesn’t need to resort to torture or illegal techniques.”
Keep up the great work.
Mike Driehorst
dnarby
The problem is that torture has been purposely ill-defined by the media.
If the public clearly understood what the difference was between torture and coerced interrogation, I’m pretty sure most folks would pick the latter over the former.
Greg
I agree with you CJ. Torture should not be used. However, some of the things that happened at Abu Ghraib were not really torture, so the definition of torture is where the debate will really occur. I do not think putting panties on someone’s head is torture. I am not sure that a barking dog is torture, but clearly an attacking dog would be.
I disagree with your idea that torture causes an increase in American soldiers being fired on. The other side will invent torture stories if there are no real stories to be told. They make up stories like the Koran being flused down a toilet, if that is what they need to stir up the violence against the other side.
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jessdawn
I put off signing on to a new web site and having yet one more log on and password, but I could not let this one go.
As a U.S. Army Interrogator I fully support what CJ typed. Not only does it cause more damage than it is worth it is not a productive way to gain information. People will say what ever they THINK you want to hear if it will stop abuse. This can cause bad info getting to our soldiers in the field and in my opinion that is worse than getting no information.
Also as Greg mentioned some of the things that happened at Abu Ghraib were not by definition torture, but it was a tool used by insurgents for propaganda and also recruiting. We have a responsibility to make sure that we do not facilitate the enemy’s mission in this manner. True they will make things up, but we are handing them a present when stuff like this happens. Just like in America most of them will take stories and even things on their news with a grain of salt. However, when we negative U.S. actions all over our news they tend to take that at 100%.
jessdawn
Wait some clarification. I was an interrogator that did serve in Iraq. Now I am a momma that gets to stay with my kids, that works as an instructor teaching those who go overseas to interrogate now. (To myself I am still an interrogator, but I could see how most would say that I am not)
Tracy
CJ and Jessdawn, thank you for your insights. Jessdawn, you brought up a very good point re: those being tortured will say whatever they think you want to hear to stop the torture and that won’t help our soldiers one bit.
I also agree with CJ that torture just bring us down to their level.
jpieslak
Hey Jessdawn–if you are still out there, I am writing a book on music and American soldiers in Iraq, and would love to interview you about your interrogation experiences. As it turns out, I interviewed CJ and it was really amazing. I’ve done a considerable amount of work on the use of music in detainee interrogation, and CJ was awesome in helping me out. Please contact me at: jpieslak@ccny.cuny.edu. I am a professor of music at The City College of New York, CUNY, and you can check out some of my research–just so you know I’m for real–at: http://www.americansoldiersonmusic.com. Or if anyone else out there has worked in interrogation, I’d love to hear from you.
Just an FYI for the post, there has been a lot of debate about music used in detainee interrogation and some scholars do, in fact, consider it torture (although the legalities of torture explicitly say it is not). I’d be happy to give this a rundown if anyone is interested.
jpieslak
Hi Jessdawn. I’m writing a book on music and American soldiers in Iraq, and I’d love to interview you. CJ was involved in interrogation and he helped me out a ton! If you have a moment, please contact me at: jpieslak@ccny.cuny.edu. If interested, you can hear CJ’s interview at: http://www.americansoldiersonmusic.com. I’m a professor of music at The City College of New York. Thanks! I’d be interested is anyone else has experience with this.
sealpatriot
Seriously, there is nothing that torture gets us. Thanks for posting, CJ!
Tracy
I agree with you CJ. It’s stooping to their level if we torture also.
Jessdawn~great point re: the fact that under torture, they may just say what they think their torturers want to hear. What they say may not help the troops and may just harm them.
CommanderMom
Yes CJ , you are correct in your response on~SERE school. I see what Miss LadyBug was saying, but it is valuable training for our troops for survivabilty.
CJ
Jess, Jon is a great guy. Give him a ring!!
Tracy
Sorry for the double postings. oops!!
LL
Hey CJ, I read the actual report and I’m wondering if the order of the questioning and interviewing had an effect on the statistics. Maybe we can discuss this in email.
jpieslak
In the event anyone is interested…
The poll on torture is very difficult to assess. First, I’m not aware that anyone (either the soldiers who were polled or the general public on the Army Times site) had an explicit definition of torture. Given the different definitions that this word can carry for different people, I think it makes the resulting statistics highly questionable.
This is a language and legal issue specifically related to the use of the word “torture.†The United Nations Convention Against Torture defines it as, “any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.â€
Defining torture as “severe pain and suffering†has been historically problematic because this allows for the possibility that there exist levels of pain and suffering which are not “severe†enough to be called torture. In 1978, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) addressed this problem, ruling in the case of Ireland vs. UK that five techniques of “sensory deprivation†were not torture but were “inhuman or degrading treatment.†Article c of the ruling established that “pending their interrogations, holding detainees in a room where there was a continuous loud and hissing noise†was one of the five techniques of sensory deprivation. However, the court stated,
Although the five techniques, as applied in combination, undoubtedly amounted to inhuman and degrading treatment, although their object was the extraction of confessions, the naming of others and/or information and although they were used systematically, they did not occasion suffering of the particular intensity and cruelty implied by the word torture as so understood.
My work has specifically addressed music in interrogation, which legally is not torture (even though some music scholars has assumed it is). Above all, torture is a very tricky issue. When a poll or any debate on the topic does not set up ground rules for definitions, based on an understanding of the legalities behind the topic, it’s result are most likely going to be suspect.–my $.02
LL
Ok, I don’t remember seeing that graphic on the original post and maybe didn’t realize it was an online poll. I was talking about the CentCom study that the statistics you first quote is from. That study had 3 parts (I think). One was basically combat stress related, the second was the ethics part, and the third was suicide/mental health related. Cpl M read it cuz I sent him the link. If you’d like it too, let me know.
steve rogers
S.E.R.E. school is not always voluntary. For years it was a required summer course for all cadets at the Air Force Academy. My wife went through it in the late 80′s and then went home to her horrified parents when it was over covered with bruises and 15 pounds underweight. The AFA discontinued SERE in 1995 due to the sexual abuse of some cadets in the mock POW camp but are bringing it back this year.