A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
It has been way too long since we’ve had an Open Briefing. For you newbies to the site, Open Briefing is your chance to talk about whatever you want as long as you behave.
Ice breaker: What do you think about taking all the “military age male” illegals this new immigration policy could affect and requiring them to serve a four year enlistment prior to citizenship? If they choose not to enlist, double or triple the “fine” they’re having to pay.* Not only would this help the Marine Corps and Army grow to their new end strengths, but it would ease the OpTempo on those that are constantly deployed. Discuss.
*Note: This new amnesty bill is complete crap, but I am trying to stay away from politics. I suggest the rest of you debate the question and not if the new immigration policy will work.
(30) Readers Comments
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I am posting this in case someone by the name of susan just goes to th
LL
My biggest concern with something like this is that the Loyalty is not there.
They are illegal aliens “because of the money.”
They are joining “because of the money (or avoiding paying it).”
If a bad guy offers up enough money…where does that leave the AMERICAN soldiers in the bad guy’s way? Dead. That’s where.
A sellout is a sellout and I don’t want them in uniform watching YOUR back. Period.
Terri
While requiring them to serve in the military in order to gain entrance into the US, as LL says that can cause problems due to their loyalty or lack of. I do think however, that anyone, male or female who wants to come to the US should be required to serve some sort of government service as a part of them becoming a citizen of this Country.
11thacr
I read this some where , Maybe in the New York Harbor.
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
We would need to take down the Statue of Liberty if you want to change the ways you are allowing Immigrants into this Country. The problem is not with the Immigrants but Politics. Your remarks reflect the problems with the Politics.
11th ACR
PVC
How many draftees in Vietnam or let’s say WW2 “let their fellow soldiers get whacked ?”
Isn’t that something that is weeded out by boot camp, and then on the field by “mutual survival” instinct ?
I have lots of friends in the military and former military, and yes we know it’s the best there ever was, but then we have this idea that regular joes and janes can’t serve. Bad idea. They have in the past, they probably will at some future date.
The dems whine it’s all stupid people with no way out going in, then the retort is we whom are in are a cut above ( which of course is correct due to requirements and simply standard statements by any memeber of any organization. )
So in the end, when the Military needs people, they will get what they need, even if it’s service required.
Always have in the past, and these new ideas about people aren’t qualified because their heart isn’t in it is bogus.
Those with heart can be advanced and be commanders and officers and get the bonuses and raises and the rest. There are incentives.
The disgruntled can mope through and get what they give, just like it is in any other organization in the USA, business or otherwise.
If we through all the ” not cream of the crop” off the side or denied entry, every single business in the USA would shut down right now, except the sole proprietorships.
My friends in the military, and certainly I’m sure many of you in the military, have all kinds of stories of “dummies” and I mean DUMMIES in the service right now, and even in command positions. That of course is not a put down,it’s just the reality, and it happens everywhere and in everything, including in this volunteer only Military right now.
Noone can take on the USA military successfully, and including a demand for service requirement won’t change that, either.
No doubt if it were to happen, some of those required service before citizenship forces would make the cream of the crop cut – special forces and all the rest.
For those that can’t hack it at all, they get hacked , and don’t get their citizenship. ( or they get their amnesty anyway from the sellouts on Capitol Hill )
sue
I think you have a valid point Marcus, but I also agree with Terri and LL. There will be that question of loyalty. Though there are a great many immigrants who are now currently serving in the Armed Forces as a means to a speedier citizenship. A great many have actually served their full tours and then were awarded their citizenship from a grateful nation. I see nothing wrong with that. I also see nothing wrong with having all aliens be required to serve some sort of service, either stateside or in the military. They want to come and take from our country they should be willing to give for it too. This is the land of opportunity and if you want that opportunity it should cost you.
11th ACR, I don’t think that there would be a reason for the Statue to be taken down or for the words to be removed. The immigrants would still be welcomed into this country but they are no longer going to get a free ride the way the illegals have been. They are stealing our social security money, they are stealing welfare, they are voting in many instances and they are stealing college scholarships that should go to US citizens as well as taking college slots that should go to citizens at an instate rate that the illegals are paying if they are paying at all at the expense of American kids who cannot afford college.
There is nothing wrong with updating antiquated statutes and laws. In this case, I believe it is long over due. Also, the way immigrants come here today is not the same as it was back when the Statue was built or when Ellis Island was in its prime. Also, remember that those people were all coming here LEGALLY. We are now overrun by ILLEGALS. They are EVERYWHERE, and causing problems for every one. Including you and me.
Donna
I think that would be a good idea to require the illegals to serve in the military but you know I didn’t think of what LL said about loyalty, that right there could be a real problem.
Who knows what the solution is to these illegals but something needs to be done! They need to come into this country like their predecessors (legally)!
CommanderMom
Whoa, that is one hot topic “ice breaker”, there Cpl. M!
We can only answer the question, huh?
Well…I have a question to the question, then. If that were to be a requirement, and enforced, would that perhaps solve part of the Illegal immigration situation to begin with?
And yes, my first thought is the loyalty issue. And I am assuming they would have to learn to speak English, first. I hope.
But I do have to say, bless the immigrants who have served (without required obligation/ voluntarily)and some gave all, prior to full citizenship.
71stInfDetSSGTG
Let’s spread this a little farther…. Let’s make the privilege of voting subject to the successful completion of 4 years service to the nation. The service to be what ever the nation requires, be it military, forestry, rural medical service, street sweeping….
There is a old axiom that says, things gained cheaply are valued cheaply, those gotten for free are valued not at all.
Perhaps if the privilege of having a say in the way the nation is led cost 4 years of your life, folks would spend a little more time thinking through the consequences of some of the fool legislation proposed by our elected representatives. Might even make some better choices in these.
Cpl M
Goodness, I didn’t expect his much discussion.
For the record: The question stated above isn’t what I think is best. I just thought it would be a good topic to talk about.
CommanderMom, you aren’t limited to the ice breaker above. You’re free to talk about whatever you want.
Sharm
Is the commenter of 10:49 suggesting that a 14 year old do volunteer work to be documented by … whom? The schools? Or voting age is raised to age 22?
Our government has failed us for years with the problem of illegal immigration. Why should we be put in a position to have to feel guilty about the issue of innocent children born to illegals who should not be receiving benefits through the illegal actions of their parents? I have a heart. I don’t want to see children suffer. I don’t want people to die of dehydration as they try to gain illegal entry. We should not have to be in that position!
Requiring military service is an interesting issue but fraught with problems, at least with regard to our border issue. Language first of all. ESOL in the schools is already controversial. Will the military have to require bilingual commanders? Those immigrants who now enter the military are self-motivated. I have read stories of valor and well-deserved citizenship. Under the suggested circumstances any immigrant who does not make it through boot camp would claim discrimination. Yet there are those who say they just want a chance to earn a living and be good citizens. Maybe a recruiting station could be set up at the border where the “help” stations are located.
There are Mexicans who believe that a portion of the Southwestern states still belongs to Mexico. I don’t know how prevalent that is but it is pretty frightening if a significant number hold that belief.
Back from conjecture and to the present, I wonder where we will be next year at this time with Iraq and Afghanistan?
Sharm
Oops, didn’t make sense… still speculating, just about a new topic…
LL
There are many foreign nationals serving in our military to both SERVE and to gain citizenship. They know we are in a war and STILL sign up. Amazing men and women, who would fight on behalf of another nation and their fortitude proves their desire to become a full citizen of the United States of America.
When that service is forced upon someone for MONETARY REASONS ONLY, that is just a bad, bad, bad idea.
And SSGT G, you’re talkin’ Starship Troopers and I’ve never been adverse to the idea.
sue
71st, I don’t think that linking it to voting would be a good idea. The voting records of most American Citizens is abysmal at best. Americans, unfortunately suffer from terminal apathy!! You can’t get our own citizens to vote with OUT requirements. I am, however not opposed to some sort of service to ones country as a requirement. But say 2 years not 4 of mandatory. This would increase the pool that M was talkin about, yet not burden anyone to a point where they are delaying college for too long. Too many people in this country take too much for granted and are very content to sit on their butts while others do the heavy lifting. Thank you for your service by the way if it is in order.
Our nation is at war. It is a war on an ideology that threatens every aspect of our lives yet most people are too busy hating Bush and worrying about whether or not they are going to have the newest ipod or a bigger McMansion than their neighbor to be thinking about helping someone else or sacrificing a little to lift the burdens off the people who give them the Freedom and the safe life that they take so much for granted. Most people won’t even volunteer any of their time because they are too busy asking, “What’s in it for me?”
As far as what Sharm is saying about the “innocent” children, the loop hole about having a kid in this country automatically making that kid a citizen needs to be changed. It is LOOOOONG overdue. We are the only country that has such a ridiculous law on the books. And no, as far as this is concerned, I do not have a heart at all. These people are breaking and have broken the law. That does not entitle them to a drink of water at a public drinking fountain in a park maintained by my tax dollars when they have broken the law and are now draining our health care system as well as all the other assistance programs in this country not to mention, breaking laws left and right once they blend in with impunity. You break the law, you get punished. Unless you are an illegal. They you get let go, because it isn’t worth it to chase you down. Ask any one in law enforcement. Why should a Mexican illegal doing 90 on I 70 get off scott free when you would get a $300 ticket?? But it happens ALL the time. There is a decided criminal element among them. Slave traders, coyotes, there are the drunk drivers who are killing people left and right. They are taking innocent American Children’s lives and for what??
So they can get a free pass in our country?? Let them go back to their own country and work their butts off there and make effective changes to their government and help their own people rise from poverty instead of coming here and stealing from us and taking a short cut.
You have a health care plan?? Ok, next year, it will cost you 11% more to take care of your health regardless of the plan you are on. Do you know why?? Because it costs this country Billions of dollars each year to give the FREE, yes I said FREE health care to Illegal Mexicans who cheated their way into this country. It is costing our schools Billions of dollars, YOUR tax payer dollars to educate these children, and bend over backwards for them to NOT learn our language.
NO I DO NOT HAVE A HEART. I am very fed up.
Sharm
Sue,
I wasn’t promoting amnesty or even agreeing with the policy of allowing children of illegals to become citizens. (Yes, they are innocent and have no control over their parents’ actions). I don’t live out west and don’t have to witness what is happening; my pocketbook does the witnessing. When my husband and I lived in Florida in the late 80′s, he was almost killed by an illegal who did not comprehend or care what a red light signals. My husband had good reflexes and was just slightly injured. Our car was totaled and we had to pay the deductible on a vehicle whose blue book value was much lower than the actual value of the car. So we had to start out together by getting into debt to buy a new vehicle. No license, no insurance and no English for the driver.
My anger is that we should not be put in the position to have to be heartless.
Hey LL, I was thinking Starship Troopers right off the bat but didn’t think anyone would get the reference!
dusgalan
This is not a good option–arming criminals? Isn’t that against the law already????
Just a thought
dusgalan of mt
11thacr
Nice response to a Critical Question in this Country. Immigration in this post seems to be centered towards Mexicans. The truth is there are a lot of illegal Mexicans in this country ,But, there are also many from Honduras ,Guatemala ,Vietnam , Afghanistan and Iraq. I work at one of the Major Ports in this country and see them all. I also served in Vietnam. You are saying that some of the laws need to change. The answer there is in your Hands , it’s called Voting. I did not serve in Nam to protect the rich back Home , I did not serve to Protect the Famous , I served to Protect my country which includes all Men Women and Children. The illegals are here because we let them be here. Don’t punish them for what your Country has let them do. I agree with a lot of what is being said but there are a Lot of illegals here that are trying to do it the right way. It sometimes takes years for these poor soles to get in front of the line to get sworn in , until you are in their shoes we need to cut them some slack. I think the people of this country are still compassionate for there neighbors.
11th ACR
LL
Some of ya’ll are veering off into the politics of illegals and immigration policy, have you noticed?
Here’s a convoluted thought process kind of question…can you expect loyalty, allegiance, and service from non-citizens, who do NOT have the right to vote yet and who therefore have no say in any war-declaring process? Can you expect them to fight honorably on America’s behalf when they don’t have a voice and can’t expect one until AFTER they fight? And I’m asking those questions in regards to the scenario Cpl M wrote about…as a means to avoid paying double or triple the fines already incurred as a result of entering this country illegally.
I truly don’t think it’s a viable solution/suggestion.
sue
11th, I agree that there are illegals coming from many different countries but, the ones from Iraq aren’t hoisting our flag upside down and claiming portions of the United States for their own and saying they are entitled to everything our country has to offer just because they are here like the Mexicans are. If you go back through the archives here you will find exactly what I was talking about.
I have serious objections to saying that just because you are here, you have the right to my social security that will not be there for my retirement, or yours or my children’s because some Mexican got it because some idiot Congressman said it was ok. And I DO vote!! I am NOT apathetic. I DO write my congressman and Senators and I DO write to others urging them to do the right thing. Only problem with that is that most of them, couldn’t care less. I have written to my Senators I couldn’t even tell you how many times in the last 3 months and I have never gotten more than an auto response if I even got that. Where I live, if you aren’t from money, you can forget getting heard.
But I have a LOT of objections to the kind of thing that Sharm was saying about how they come here, do not speak our language, make NO attempt to learn it and feel that they are entitled, and go out and wreak havoc in the lives of innocent people and there are simply NO consequences. What makes them better than everyone else?? WHY should THEY go to the head of the line before all the people who came here the right way and have waited years going through the process and these people just have to break the law to get the gold ring?? It makes no sense. And I am compassionate as all get out. But not for people who break the law. And by what you are saying, that means that a murderer should be given a pat on the back and sent on his way just because the law was there and he broke it, big deal. Sorry I don’t look at it that way. If you want my compassion, it has to be legitimate. Not break the law, do as you please and then say because I was able to break the law you have to take care of me AND my family ANd all my Families Family and Their family and so on and so on. Why not just hang a Mexican flag and be done with it if that’s what you want to do? Bottom line, they knew when they came here, they were breaking the law. THEY KNEW IT. So why should they get anything for doing that??
sue
And thank you for your service by the way!!
Sharm
It doesn’t seem like a viable option because those who would fight honorably are already doing so. And yet . . ., there were those who were drafted who didn’t want to serve yet fought the good fight in the end. Bonding occurs. Band of brothers. Could it happen? Or would the court martial hearings be endless? (Sorry for my contribution to the politics; it often gets entangled in a discussion unnecessarily.)
Sharm
Sue,
I am just going to respond one last time because as was pointed out above, this was not supposed to get political. Please go back and read my 10:01 a.m. post again. I never said any of what you claimed I did. I never said that feeling compassion should lead to amnesty.
sue
Sharm, I’m not looking for a fight and don’t wish to upset you because I have an opinion. I don’t know what you are saying I “claimed” that you said. I stated that your reference to “innocent children” was merely another loophole in the law. If that offended you I apologize. My other reference to you was that your accident was exactly my point about them coming here and wreaking havoc. If that was misconstrued also I apologize for that too. I merely stated my opinion which I thought was what I was allowed to do here, but apparently that isn’t the case. Point taken.
Sharm
Sue,
I wasn’t intending for this to go further, but read your last paragraph about your objections to me from 11:40. Just because I find that the children are innocent does not not mean that they should get a free pass. The best way I can explain it is this way. Let’s say that I work for a hospital at the border somewhere. An illegal immigrant woman in labor comes in to the ER. I would want to treat her because I feel compassion, no matter what the state of the law. I don’t think the child should become a U.S. citizen on site. But as a human being, I would not feel right to turn away that woman, even if it means another child born in our country to illegal immigrants. It is our government that should never have allowed our borders to become so porous, to put people in a position to allow illegal immigration to continue. The same is true if I happen to see someone dehydrated to the point of death (if I live in that part of the country). I would give the person water rather than let him die. That doesn’t mean I think he should live off of my money. If you read over my comments, you’ll see that. I said that people should not have to placed in that position. I don’t have to deal with it in my backyard like those who live close to the border do. It is one big huge mess. The question that was the subject of this thread is an interesting hypothetical that should be the center of debate here.
CommanderMom
Cpl M~ Oh,Yes I TOTALLY understood! (even for a newbie
) Thank you! 
(I was ref: your note at bottom about not debating the politics of it, I usually have to kid around, sorry) I like your ice breaker topic!!!!! If you hadn’t brought it up, I would have. As we can see it’s *hot*. One I think tons about! It’s a tough one.
We are a compassionate nation, but this is a HUGE problemo, and it has been allowed to go way too far,way too long. I see all the time, things Sue mentioned, and the pendulum has swung too far to the unfair side. This is not about racism, as I’m sure all here will agree. And yes, illegal immigrants do not just come from Mexico, tho, currently, I believe they make up the majority, from what I know. I agree LL, “bad idea”. I agree with the many comments above, and sooo wish I knew what the perfect solution is. I’m thinking it is with the making of a perfect bill/laws (if there can be such a thing) that we can vote on. Happy Friday all!!!!
CommanderMom
11thACR~Thank you sooo much for your service to our Country.
LL
It doesn’t seem like a viable option because those who would fight honorably are already doing so. And yet . . ., there were those who were drafted who didn’t want to serve yet fought the good fight in the end. Bonding occurs. Band of brothers. Could it happen? Or would the court martial hearings be endless? (Sorry for my contribution to the politics; it often gets entangled in a discussion unnecessarily.)
Sharm, the difference is that the draft in previous years were AMERICANS. And there were still many unwilling to serve their country and left for Northern Parts. How are we going to induce non-Americans to serve a draft like position? I think another commenter said something like a scheme like this may make some go home. Or they could just hide like the current 12 million are doing……… But in the end, would you be willing to have a Mexican, Guatamalan, or even better, an Iranian illegal guard your back if you knew they were there with a weapon to avoid paying more money??
11thacr
Thank you all for recognizing my service , I appreciate it very much.
CommanderMom pretty much Sums up the Arguments.
11th ACR
CommanderMom
Well, in a nutshell back to the original, topic, as much as I wish this could be a solution to new end strengths, and Op Tempo, just not seein how it could work. Soo many variables to consider.
A good thing, tho, I have been very happy and proud to say that here, recently, (last month) I learned one (and there could be more) of our local State Universities, exceeded their prediction of enrollment of ROTC cadets for the fall!!! The numbers are on the rise!!! And have been for the past three years!!!! What does that say? HOAAAH!!! (It was our good and close friend that had the honor to return to his Alma Mater to administer their enlistment oaths’, and was featured in one of our 2 largest newspapers! ) Was an awesome article!!
Sharm
LL,
I believe what you are saying is right on target. Also an army of mercenaries plays to the propaganda tune of the far left. Just playing a little devil’s advocate for sake of the discussion. It is wishful thinking that the whole illegal immigration issue could be solved be a seemingly simple idea. I would be curious to hear the view of someone who earned citizenship while serving.
CommanderMom
11thacr~We appreciate YOU.
LL~if you were referring to the “scheme” and saying it might make them go home? I was thinking more like, if there was a WORKING and ENFORCED scheme like that, it might make some/many think twice about coming over, to begin with. (But that does not solve the prob. at hand, I know.) I think SSGTG and I were thinking along the same lines, with the ol axiom he sited, above. And I agree with that!
Freedom isn’t Free. Illegal is illegal. (that’s the black and white facts of it) I stand behind enforcing proper and just laws. I stand behind our border patrol Agents! The continuous cycle has to stop. (meaning fraud, identity thefts, unlawful employers, taxes unpaid, benefits, SS, DMV, crazy, ludicrous lawsuits, etc…., the whole wrong ball of wax, cycle) But sorry, now this is getting off topic.
So, How bout that paris Hilton, anyone? HAHA JUST KIDDING!!!!