A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
There are a lot of things I don’t understand about the anti-war movement. Their goals are often lofty and unattainable, but they push on nevertheless. I admire their determination and drive even though I feel their “mission†is beyond laughable.
The latest darling of the anti-war crowd and the MSM is Adam Kokesh, a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War and former Marine Corporal. He still calls himself a Sergeant even though he was reduced in rank for buying an Iraqi handgun and the bringing it home after his tour in Iraq. He was later discharged from the IRR with a characterization of general under honorable conditions. Google image search has multiple pictures of Kokesh appearing in full desert utilities and also of his trademarked black IVAW t-shirt and boonie cover.
His story is pretty much the same as the other warriors turned protestors. He joined the military in 1999 thinking life would be easy and then the reality of the world in which we currently live set in on September 11th. He later deployed to Fallujah where “we [his Public Affairs team] cared so that they [infantry battalion commanders] didn’t have to. [Note: I’m not going to actively link this guy, but all the info about Kokesh can be found on his blog. Google it.]
What I don’t understand about Kokesh, and a lot of other anti-war folks, is he still talks and writes like he is a Marine despite his opposition to the war and the military in general. He uses words like chow, meaning food, and advance party, meaning scouts. His reports on activities outside of bases read just like situation reports at times. If they are so against the war, why cling to the military mindset by threads? Do you think it really has that big of an effect on the young soldiers you’re trying to reach?
Something else I find amusing about Kokesh is his lack of visits to Marine Corps bases. Draw your own conclusions there.
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Hi Gaby, you can email me at tracylin.hogan@yahoo.com and i will ta
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CJ, we thank you for your service and all you have been through and ho
Sharon
I think people like Kokesh still speak in military terms because they want to add some kind of legitimacy to the idea that they represent more people than they actually do. I don’t know if that makes sense or not. I noticed that very technique on another board when a couple of times an “angry vet” would appear.
Cpl M
You’re right there, Sharon. I was pretty much thinking the same thing so it makes sense to me. I also love how the anti-war movement likes to call us brainwashed and yet they still use our terminology.
CriticalFacts
The so-called “anti-war” crowd may provide amusement for some – e.g., “beyond laughable” or “amusing” – but one thing is for certain, the “anti-war” crowd continues to raise legitimate points about the genesis of the current war in Iraq and the wisdom of continuing to prosecute this war that many have now concluded cannot be won militarily and, perhaps, not even politically. Moreover, the “anti-war” crowd is finding more and more friends in very high places – e.g., Senator John Warner and General Peter Pace, to name just a few of those recently speaking against staying the current course.
I would suggest for the time being that you contain your amusement by the “anti-war” crowd as it may yet turn out that the pro-war crowd got it wrong from the beginning. Indeed, as more and more high-powered officials such as Warner and Pace speak out against the current means of prosecuting the war, the pro-war crowd becomes increasingly marginalized by those providing such amusement!
SSgt J
Sorry CriticalFacts, you have your facts wrong. (Too much CNN, I guess) Senator Warner has been saying the same thing for a long time now, it is clearly not a new convert. Marine General Peter Pace has not decided that we need to cut and run. Obviously you have not talked to him, but instead have read the so called ‘secret’ report he is alledged to be preparing for the President. Do you and your fellow ‘anti-war’ crowd think there is ANY chance that Al Sadr will bring in his buddies from Iran to take over Iraq when we ‘re-deploy” our troops? If so, is that an option that you want to risk? Or is it an option that your favor?
sealpatriot
What legitimate points are you illegitamately talking about? It can’t be the false notion that there are more terrorists in the world. Nor can it be the innaccurate bolster that Intel was hidden or misconstrued by adminsitration officials to advance their position past that of their opponents. It also can not be the claim that Iraq has gotten more deadly than during the Hussein days when the number of dead that averages per month is about 120 versus the 165 average per day during the Hussein years. It also can’t be the MISCONTRUED evidence that Senator Carl Levin helped doctor to rebuttle Vice President Richard Cheney when he said that Al Qeada had a presence in Iraq under Hussein’s military in which the Intel services of most countries even NATO nations support along with one of the institutions that hate George W. Bush the most, The CIA. I might add that facts support this as well. Quiet sweet and simple, CF. If it’s anti-war crowd material, it’s not valid, it’s not scratching the surface of valid, and that the only reason why the anti-war crowd seems to feel so successful is the fact that they have selective hearing and only hear the things they want to hear. They also cut off those who disagree with them making communication much more difficult to establish. Please don’t take the Democrats’ extremely narrow win in 2006 and their three times lower approval ratings than Bush’s as anything resemlbing that of a victory on your behalf. Don’t make the same mistake Newt Gingrich did back in 1994 when he thought that the Republican taking of both chambers was evidence of that the American People liked his “CONTRACT WITH AMERICA” plan when they didn’t(*reminder*-The dems think that the people like their anti-military base but they don’t). For a matter of fact, according to a great source called the American Thinker that I was linked to from Rush Limbaugh’s website, a majority of American people just like those people of Iraq want us to leave Iraq, but not just yet. They both feel we ought to leave when we’re ready, they’re ready and we feel they’re ready, and that the American public(again, just like Iraq’s) doesn’t want anything short of a victory in Iraq. Which as proven through the military’s many victories over the insurgents in Iraq, is more than possible and near. This come September, I am sure Petraeus will say we can start drawing(maybe establish a Garrison) down troops and that OIF is a qualified victory. Sorry to those of you in the Anti-war crowd smoking pot, but quiet frankly the general of MNF-Iraq has the facts on his side. Hands down, I guess those are the only valid facts your going to hear today, CF. Try learning the definition of legitimate points because I haven’t heard any from you so far.
Paula Golladay
Perhaps I am biased, ok in many anti-war people’s minds I am. My husband is currently depolyed once again. Am I sitting home and whinning and crying as if the world will come to a hault if he does not walk in the door this minute? No I am not, do I miss him, well it does not take a field of potatoes to figure that out.
I can recall the anti-war movement of View Nam when soldiers came home and they were spat upon, disregarded as heros, called names that I will not repeat. And on of the sadest things is even many of their own family did not want them back. I guess it was the old “out of sight out of mind”. Do you truly wish for this to happen once again? I pray not.
I concur I can’t understand the anti-war movement. Yes they have their Constitutional right to protest. Have any of them read our courtries history, and to go even further back the history of the area that is now the Middle East. Can you recall the Ottoman Empire? Read some history, and then think with your mind open, and then kiss the ground you are living in.
If so many of you state that you will leave this country if this or that happens. Well ladies and gentelmen I do not see you leaving for the Middle East. Nor do I see any of the Hollywood crowd leaving as they so well shouted that they would.
Want to destroy the heart of a soldier, marine, navy, air force, or coast guard NCO, Enlisted, or Officer. Let them see you screaming how horrible they think you are. That dear friends is how somone enters battle with not their full mind on getting the mission done.
Thanks for allowing me to state that I am happily married to my soldier.
CriticalFacts
SSgtJ:
I refer you to the below, which is just one example of reports that the white house is outraged – today – at the statements made yesterday by Sen. Warner concerning Iraq. Your contention that Warner’s position today is the same as weeks ago is flatly incorrect.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/08/24/ap4053181.html
Seal Pat:
I refer you only to the now near-universal understanding and acknowledgment that the Iraq war cannot be won militarily. This is a position the “anti-war” crowd has been stating since before BushCo invaded Iraq. You will continue to hear validation of this point as time goes on; at least, that is, if you keep an open mind re the matter.
Terri
Sharon/CF, I see now that you’re no longer allowed to bastardize the posts at ASM, you’ve decided to come over here and spew your typical crap. As SealPatriot said, as usual, you have nothing legitimate to say.
sealpatriot
How does anybody be open minded to you when you’re not open minded to them, CF? Just curious, because I was disecting your first statement and rebuttling it respectfully, which is bearing an open mind since I am directly addressing the fact that I was listening to you. At the same time, I am convinced that your validations are anything but valid, and that a lot of the stuff I hear from the Anti-War crowd is nothing but malicious agitprop designed to score upsmanship with the tactic of making ones opposition look bad. It’s nothing more than a spit in the face. Last time I checked it was the anti-war crowd who did that to vets from Nam and they’re doing it again to vets who speak out against them(total narrow-mindedness) nowadays. I personally don’t want to keep an open mind to you or the other anti-war folks that come around these parts, but it is a part of my general make up as a person to take each side of the argument and form my own thesis. Quiet frankly CF, I wonder if you ever stop by A Soldier’s Mind and see what was being said in rebuttle to my valid thread comments, sometimes my comments are met with consideration that I am not academically honest, and implying that I get stoned on the college campus(funny but still annoying), or that I haven’t studied hard enough. If you see that, then you’ll hardly consider your own side open-minded(Cliff isn’t, that’s for sure, no offense).
sealpatriot
“I refer you only to the now near-universal understanding and acknowledgment that the Iraq war cannot be won militarily.”
-that’s funny, define losing. As of right now(and ever), we’re winning. Not sure of everything Petraeus will say this September but it might be possible that He’ll say we’ve already won. Even Iraq’s president thinks we’ve won, he said it’s the military’s choice to leave and that the military(military not the people of the U.S. although I think the people ought to have their say) can decide when they can start drawing down. Are you open-minded enough to accept that?
sealpatriot
Paula is so right, and I wish her husband all the best and that no harm comes to him given the rigors of his job. However, as much as I agree that the anti-war crowd has the right to protest, I do not think they have the right to take it as far as they do. For a matter of fact, the only reason why they get away with a lot of the things they say is because they play the “freedom of speech” harp in which they know the opponents of their stances often show respect to, especially if they are soldiers or in the United States Federal Government. Quiet frankly though, everybody knows they are just shooting cheap shots at their political competition and that whatever they say hardly is a free speech issue about their rights due to the fact that they often violate the rights of their opponents such as I mentioned earlier “cutting them off” before they get a chance to speak. Don’t get me wrong, I oppose the actions of anyone(not them, just that action which was a violation of their opposition’s rights) who is on my side of the fence who does this to one of the opposition. However, I don’t like being a rug to stand on, nor does the anyone else. Honestly, I feel that this would be the perfect discription of the anti-war crowd’s actions towards those who disagree with them, and it is nothing short of that.
sue
It really is such a shame that people who link to lengthy articles only have the attention span to read the first couple pp’s!!
sealpatriot
Ditto, Sue. CF, I hardly consider General Peter Pace and Senator Warner as enemies of the White House and friends of the anti-war movement(as you have said, CF). That would be an invalid thing to say, afterall they aren’t anything like the anti-war crowd and haven’t resorted to the same lying, Bush-bashing hatred that the so-called peace-niks have resorted to. In fact, you have called the last of the pro-military aspect of the U.S. as marginalized. Well, I don’t mind at all for being marginalized if I am. Quiet frankly, we have some good company as well. How many times has a General come out to oppose the assertions of the anti-war Americans. They heavily outnumber the ones that support the anti-war assumptions so for a matter of fact, I have good friends in high places as well. However, I would only speak for specific people if I were you, CF. There are a few idiots who became generals in America’s history and all of them are the bulk of what make up the ones who do really ally themselves with the anti-war crowd. Now, I am not going to say that somebody as General Wesley Clark is an idiot because he has my respect no matter what, all generals do. However, I won’t consider him a good friend to those of the anti-war because I honestly do not think he was a good NATO leader. Sorry to Clark but I think NATO was at it’s weakest when he had a hand of power in running it do to the fact that about 89 percent of the NATO nations’(by that I mean countries that comprise NATO) enemies were captured due to the fact that the indigenous personnel of the third world nation countries they operated in helped them find those enemies with informants and action as well(sometimes supplying aid with their own military or militia). This fact proves that NATO has lost it’s edge and that the armed forces of the countries apart of the organization have had to resort to more independent maneuvers to deal with the differing needs of each and every country they operate in. Rather than relying on the organization to help make the bulk of the work that comes with defending a country any less difficult than it already is. So quiet frankly, don’t get carried away with your friends in high places just yet, they aren’t so high by the standards of the military operates that nowadays in which they work more effectively, honorably, and skillfully. You could almost say that these generals who are speaking on behalf of the anti-war movement and against the officers currently dealing with the problems they aren’t good enough to deal with as liabilities rather than a valid source or somebody fit for(as you put it) “High Places”.
sealpatriot
You guys may disagree, but I’m all good with that.
Miriam
The current anti-war croud is the same croud as the one during ‘Nam. Nothing new (or more sensable) there. Just more short-sightedness and selfishness.
However, some serious dust-ups are on the horizon with those people in “high places”, never fear. So American soldiers can take heart. The heart and soul of America is rising even if they aren’t focused much on the Iraq war at the moment. We ARE grateful for your sacrifice. You will not be abandoned.
CriticalFacts
Interesting how one’s points of view, although shared by a growing majority of the American citizenry, can be so summarily dismissed by others as, for example, “malicious agitprop.” As I have stated many times before, Karl Rove has masterfully divided the nation on so many fronts that generations may be required before Americans come to grips with common and aligned interests again.
sue
Oh the drama!! What ever did the democrats do before Karl Rove!!
sue
Oh and now they can conveniently hang the ills of all future generations in the foreseeable future on Karl Rove as well. Wow how incredible is that to be so blessed. I don’t remember ever seeing Karl Rove’s cape or tights when I have seen him. Perhaps he ducks into a nearby phone booth. DOH!! There are no more phone booths!!
CriticalFacts
Ah yes, my old friend, sue, always ready, willing and able to go directly to the substance of a debate. My gosh, woman, even hard core Republican apologists readily admit now that Bush would not be president today had Rove not so effectively divided the nation, first in 2000 and second in 2004.
As to drama, I consider nearly 4,000 dead Americans and countless seriously injured to be, in fact, rather dramatic!
sue
“My Gosh” Richard, I was merely commenting on your content no need to be so sensitive. You put it out there. And Karl Rove hasn’t done anywhere near the derisive hatchet job your beloved MSM has done to divide this country. By purposefully publishing false stories, withholding stories, and publishing half truths the lemmings like you in this country have been lead right over the cliff. I still do not understand Richard, if you find everything here so offensive to your delicate constitutional, why you continue to visit and regurgitate your misinformation. Your link above is a prime example.
SSgtJ
My friends and I did our time in Vietnam and were rewarded with disdain and disrespect from the so called ‘anti-war’ movement of the time. The anti-war crowd told me, how they shortened the Vietnam War. History shows that they actually extended the war. Richard Nixon tried negotiating with China and North Vietnam to get an early peace treaty. The anti-war crowd weakoned Nixon’s hand and clearly extended the negotiations. Now, our children are in Iraq and Afganistan. Again, our Military is being rewarded with disdain and disrespect from the so called ‘anti-war’ movement. And once again some of the ‘anti-war’ crowd lie, distort, attack and belittle instead of using actual facts or even any common since. It pains me beyond words to see even one of our brave Americans die in any war. What should pain all of us, is to cause, yes to cause, the deaths of millions in the blood bath that will follow our retreat from Iraq. You can argue all you want, about whether we should have gone into Iraq. But none of that changes the fact that we are there now. To abandon those people now will result in Iran, Syria and Turkey sending in troops. How could it not? How could you not care?
ALLONS
CriticalFacts,
Yawn and more Yawn. It is great to see you blame Rove for everything. I am sure he directed the flight paths into the World Trade Center buildings, that field in PA and the Pentagon.
You know what guy!!! You are so lost in your hatred of Bush and Company YOU can’t see straight.
This Board does not allow me to say what I REALLY THINK AND WOULD SAY TO YOU!!!
You scum bag. I think I can get away with that…
ALLONS
glenn
Is this a serious website?
sealpatriot
Growing majority? I hardly consider slightly more than half of the country as a “growing majority” as it may seem that it maybe changing as quickly as it got that way. At the same time, I wouldn’t doubt that lying on purpose to score political upsmanship as anything short of “malicious agitprop”. In which nobody here has done so except the anti-war visitors, and when confronted and disproven they come back and repeat what they said earlier(sometimes months later, with little respect to those who spoke against them). Personally, I could really care less if you continue repeating yourself. Asserting yourself isn’t the way to get what you want, neither is blaming others “maliciously” for political gains. Afterall CF, I would be cautious if I were you, you claim that we can’t win and aren’t winning and that the American public has lost faith in dealing with things through their armed forces. Yet, it looks as though they’ll win this thing without your support or that of those who don’t want them to win in Iraq, even the ones in capitol hill.
sealpatriot
If being united means thinking like you, CF. Then let’s wither the next storm as a broken house. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Much respect to you though.
sealpatriot
“What legitimate points are you illegitamately talking about? It can’t be the false notion that there are more terrorists in the world. Nor can it be the innaccurate bolster that Intel was hidden or misconstrued by adminsitration officials to advance their position past that of their opponents. It also can not be the claim that Iraq has gotten more deadly than during the Hussein days when the number of dead that averages per month is about 120 versus the 165 average per day during the Hussein years. It also can’t be the MISCONTRUED evidence that Senator Carl Levin helped doctor to rebuttle Vice President Richard Cheney when he said that Al Qeada had a presence in Iraq under Hussein’s military in which the Intel services of most countries even NATO nations support along with one of the institutions that hate George W. Bush the most, The CIA. I might add that facts support this as well.”
*I hardly consider any of these things that I have listed which comes from common claims of anti-war activists as anything short of “malicious agitprop”
Terri
As usual, CF has been hanging out with the crowd over at 1U, and recites Cliffy’s mantra word for word, verse for verse. Hmmmmmm, sounds like “sheep mentality” to me.
sealpatriot
“As to drama, I consider nearly 4,000 dead Americans and countless seriously injured to be, in fact, rather dramatic!”
CriticalFacts, sorry my friend but we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I hardly consider the 500,000 Shia that Hussein killed using organizations that specialize in terror tactics such as PLF, Hamas, Mubarak, Mujahideen, Al Qeada, Fedayeen, and Mukhabarat to committ democide(military killings design to scare the people from speaking out against them) on the tribes of Iraq’s Shia community as in fact nothing short of “rather dramatic”! I also hardly consider the 14,500 Kurds who were tortured, shot, terrorized(through Zarqawi, a Jordanian Al Qeada fighter and Chem warfare specialist from Afghanistan), and gassed to death as anything short of “rather dramatic” either. These facts are Critical and had to be met decisively with force and “dramatically”, no other way. My well wishes to you and yours, I am done with this thread.
Miriam
LOL. As usual, CF gives us a good laugh. I’m curious. Would those “hard core Republican apologists” possibly come from the national leadership of the Republican party? ‘Cause if they do, they’re one of the ones first in line for a serious dust-up…and not about the Iraq war, mind you.
Seal is right that many Americans could change their mind about the Iraq war in the same New York minute that it was made up in. (That is to say, that if they’ve been drinking New York cool-aid, the effect will wear off as soon as they stop. And to my mind, much if not all of what AP puts out constitutes the same cool-aid.)
sealpatriot
kook aid is more like it, miriam. lol!
sue
You’re right Miriam. The problem is that the media is so full of lies and they purposefully withhold a lot of the more positive things that are going on so that the people are told nothing but one side. If the American public at large would be bothered to educate themselves the democrats would be in big trouble. But since the majority of the media is controlled by the George Soros’ and Ted Turners of the world, it’s not real likely to happen any time soon. It is the reason that Fox News is hated so much by the left. Because Rupert Murdock has the guts to show the OTHER side of what is going on. And that is a dangerous thing that will undermine the propaganda machine.
I was watching a show where they had people on the left arguing about how they are the popular opinion and that conservatism is dying. Well someone pointed out how these people obviously pay no attention to the books that are on the best seller lists. Because there are all books by conservatives at the top of the best seller lists. People like Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh. So, if the majority is leaning to the left, who is buying all these books?? I don’t think people are shelling out $30 or more for a doorstop!!
SSgtJ
Not to beat this dead horse anymore, but CF sent me to a web site which just refers to an AP story (enough said already). However, nothing in that story or any of the other stories that I can find, refute my original comments regarding Sen. Warner. He (Sen. Warner) has been against the so called surge for some time. Note, that some of the men and women on the ground may call it re-inforcements instead of a ‘surge’. Now that he wants to make a token reduction in that troop increase is hardly news. It is clearly what he has been asking for all along.
sue
SSgtJ thanks for your service, and for all your sacrifices. I am sorry that you were treated so badly, and I agree with you whole heartedly about the protesters. History is very clear on the matter. I still believe that one of the biggest problems with this whole thing, is that we live in such an “instant” society. That we as a people are so programmed for instant gratification that we no longer understand, that things cannot always be done in “microwave time”. Sometimes you just need to let them roast in the oven to get the bestl result.
One only has to look back at history to learn these lessons. And we all need to remember that if we do not take the lessons of history we are doomed to repeat them.
ALLONS
The US Military did not lose the war in Vietnam. The US Congress did it for them in December 1974 with the Foreign Assistance Act of 1974. This Act cut off all funding for the war that was being waged by the South Vietnam Military. Sorry folks, but wars cost money. Congress under pressure from the anti-war monement were more then willing to wash their hands from this war. Nixon had been weakened over Watergate and was just trying to hang on. To try to save his own butt he bowed down. Didn’t help him. President Ford signed the Act into law after Nixon resigned. Sorry South Vietnam, you are own your own. The rest is history. Would anyone like to see the estimated figures of those killed in the region after the fall? I can pull them up for you if you want.
And now to the present.
I see the same damn thing going on in Congress today.
Just like SSgtJ. The last thing I want to see is anyone in the military put in harms way. That is part of the job of being an NCO, taking care of your Troops. But you know they are at risk because we are at WAR. A World Wide War. Those of you who think this is only going on in the ME need to wake up. And you know what. Those of you who think that if we just leave them alone then they will leave us alone. You also needs to wake up. We did that in the 90′s. Does anyone want a history lesson on this?
ALLONS
ALLONS
CriticalFacts,
Or should I call you CriticalFractures? Hear this you little slime ball that you are. Do you have a life? Because the sweat off of my Scrotum has a higher DNA rating then you CriticalFacts.
I would put a Private out of Basic Training againist your sorry AZZ any day of the week. Let’s see who wins?
But I am sure you being the sorry low life that you are. You will slink and slime like a snall that you are.
If my language offended anyone I am sorry. But this thing/guy/whatever has hit my go off point.
ALLONS
Miriam
You know, Allons, the anti-war crowd constantly refers to the Vietnam War because that was their hey-day, and they wish they had the power now that they did then. Admittedly, there’s a number of them in the Congress right now. And it is good to remember what really happened then, so it doesn’t happen again.
But Iraq isn’t Vietnam. To my knowledge, we don’t have the same level of civilians there as we did in South Vietnam. In fact, the country isn’t even split between North and South. About the only similarity between Communism and Islam is that they are both totalitarian ideologies, although that can certainly make them do some things in the same way.
I could list more differences if I could talk about them on the internet, but I think the most important difference to note is that America isn’t the same country it was during Vietnam. So I encourage both current soldiers and vets to take heart and don’t let the froghorns get to you.
CriticalFacts
Er, sorry, Miriam, but the CIC just last week made a series of comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq. What you fail to understand, apparently, is that the anti-war crowd recognized the comparisons well before the pro-war crowd, or at least those among the pro-war crowd who have now arrived at the conclusion that both fubars exhibit strong parallels – e.g., being not winable militarily.
Ryan
Is anyone on this site capable of critical thought? I see a lot of ad hominem attacks, name calling, and various other logical fallacy heavy dialog. If people would take the time to reference the sources of the information that informs their opinions more often than resorting to intimidation language and threats of violence, this site would be much better.
This isn’t a football game. This isn’t Ford vs. Chevy, Coke vs. Pepsi, or even Lindsay vs. Britney. If you’re going to take the time to have an opinion, take the time to ask why? And then ask why about the various answers you come up with, further refining understanding. This is much better than allowing one’s emotions rule your response and reactions to the world and those around you.
When you place the conclusion before the facts, you often get invalid conclusions.
I highly recommend all who are still reading and/or posting this far into the discussion to acquire and read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Nonsense-Herrings-Sacred-Everyday-Language/dp/0975366262
sealpatriot
Colonel Oliver North also stated the radical differences in his book “War Stories;Operation Iraqi Freedom” between Nam and OIF as well, and he was serving in the Vietnamese War and covered the Iraq war. At the same time, for saying that Nam or Iraq couldn’t be won militarily, you have no facts to support this. I’d like to see what facts you would present against general Curtis LeMay who came out and said that Nam could have been won on any given two week period, afterall as history of the United States’ combat scenario in Vietnam is uncovered and truths revealed(quiet to the contrary of claims by people like Kerry, Kennedy, and Ron Paul), it turned out that America hadn’t lost a single skirmish, ambush, recon, demolitions, or major battle mission in the conflict proving that the enemy, no matter how many people they shoveled out into the frontline against their own will, were practically sitting ducks who had the losing cause. Since not only did they lose in the performance of warfare, but also in terms of their popularity given that very few Viets north and south approved of the Viet militants who supported spreading the same form of government that Mao Zedong embraced. Besides, if the CIC is saying that Vietnam and OIF are the same kind of war than they obviously have no clue what goes on in the ground in Iraq. For example, in Nam the conflict was between what government should be put in place, in Iraq the type of government has already been decided and that government isn’t only built on a stable template, but it is also functioning independently and has been recognized as it’s own entity by the U.N.(in case you didn’t know, the critical fact of this matter is that Iraq is an active participant in the U.N.). In Iraq the fight isn’t about technology, or how they want the government to operate or who gets the oil revenues. It is about being able to get the different religions and relgious sects to cooperate despite the violence being inflicted by those with extreme loyalties to their form of megalomania. The fate of this battle has already been decided, exhibited, and the line has already been drawn. Different sects and religions in Iraq can and are sharing cooperation, care, and national profit(very important factor, Hussein destroyed the prosperity that Iraq had exhibited in circa 1970, this needs to be revamped). They are talking at the same table, eating in the same restaurants, shopping at the same market plateaus, raising their kids in the same homes and schools, and are taking care of each others wounded with no discrimination to their religious background. Despite the extreme(yes, I said extreme as in grave as well) threat that is being targeted at them and their families by the extremists who want them to be embroidled in an iconoclasm(english for JIHAD/sectarian warfare). As you can see with just this small sample of reasons the architecture of both wars differ to the extreme, and that even if there are similarities, they would be overtaken by all the contradictions as they are merely sticks in the sand soon to be swept under the currents of the incoming tide. Oh, at the same time, regardless if Nam could have been won, it wasn’t because the people such as the ACLU and folks with no backbone in Congress could’ve cared less including the jerks who smoked weed at Woodstock. However, that is totally different from Iraq, despite having to learn that you have to make friends with the locals to end an iconoclasm with fissures as large as that of Iraq’s cultural norms as of the last millenium and a half, the multi-national force in Iraq has been winning their fights, securing provinces, vanquishing terror organizations, and making friends with the local population through medical services and humanitarian aid. For a matter of fact, prepare for our congressional policy and lawmakers’ jaws to drop to the floor because with these facts, despite the demands still ahead in the road such as giving all of the responsibilities to Iraqis and establishing a special ops garrison(already underway through staging centcom in the United Arab Emirates) and M.E.C.(Middle Eastern Coalition-thanks to a friend of mine in the Marines I had learned that Iraq’s navy along with navy personnel from Azerbaijan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Lebanon, and Cyprus not including the British held Akrotiri) which is taking over western naval duties in the arabian peninsula and persian gulf after being trained by British and U.S. Marines in the region, chances are, the general in charge of mnf-Iraq David Petraeus will probably tell Congress that Iraq is a qualified victory. So prepare for congressional members who have been preaching Iraq is lost to end up breaking their jaws when their mouths drop to the floor, they’ll be quiet for sometime after this September. That is unless Petraeus who is under the dangerously partisan Congress’ iron fist is forced to say anything but the truth about Iraq’s ground situation(I.E. supportig the false claims recently made by politicians which I had just disproved/ and have been doing so for sometime).
Ryan
It would be videos like the following that make me lean toward the anti-war movement:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a8_1186873756
What happened in 7 years time that changed Mr. Cheney’s opinion on the viability of overthrowing the Hussein regime? From what I’ve read, a lot of what Mr. Cheney stated in 1994 is happening now. Is he surprised? If not, why not?
sue
Err, sorry CF, Miriam is correct in her assumptions. The anti war crowd of today is nothing more than yesterday’s recycled hippies trying to relive their “glory days”. Many of the younger people are the children of the same corn that protested in the 60′s and 70′s. And perhaps if you read more than a headline, you wouldn’t make as many the kinds of statements you do.
Ryan
I’m not sure I see how marginalizing someone’s point of view by associating it with someone else’s point of view is a valid form of argument.
I’m the son of a Viet Nam war veteran. No one in my family could be mistaken for “recycled hippies” or their children.
Facts are facts, no matter who states them. While it can be helpful to understand the nature and motive for someone’s opinion, to then use that as the primary means of invalidating their argument is lazy. Why not try invalidating someone’s argument by first understanding where they are coming from, what it is they are saying, and what went into the formation of their argument? You know, an actual open dialog.
Almost everything I’ve read on this site so far are examples of the worst kind of political discourse our country has to offer. It is not about discussing points of view and offering valid critique and counterpoint. It is about who is bigger and louder and who can brow beat anyone who naysays the generally held perspective. ‘Liberal’ sites can be just as bad. This helps nobody. We’re devolving into isolated support groups to massage the feelings of those who are too emotionally driven.
CriticalFacts
And then say you, sue, about the president’s comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq? Or did you overlook that part of the discussion?
BTW, what have you got against hippies? Maybe if you let your hair down and tried to tune in once in a while you wouldn’t be so uptight all the time.
ALLONS
Ryan,
I love your left wing double speak. Case closed.
___________________________________________________
CriticalFacts,
You are nothing but a loon. Add that to what I have already posted to you.
ALLONS
George
Let’s glassify the middle east! Let’s round up the 1U crowd and put them in camps! What are we waiting for? They are all traitors!
sue
GEORGE!!! Thanks for the giggle!!
sue
“Facts are facts, no matter who states them. While it can be helpful to understand the nature and motive for someone’s opinion, to then use that as the primary means of invalidating their argument is lazy. Why not try invalidating someone’s argument by first understanding where they are coming from, what it is they are saying, and what went into the formation of their argument? You know, an actual open dialog.”
Are we actually supposed to find deep meaning in this? Perhaps you would like to clarify it for us all and its relevance here. And my statement stands about recycled hippies and that “MANY” (guess you didn’t catch that word) of the younger people are the children of hippies. I happen to know a great many of them and thats’s exactly what they are!! One only has to look at the faces in the crowds to see exactly what I’m talking about.
sue
And by the way George, I’m giggling because you have been playing with your rope too long. You have obviously deprived your brain of oxygen. Just wanted to clarify, lest you think any one here buys into you!!
Terri
Isn’t that the truth Sue. Such transparency and a total waste of our valuable time.
CriticalFacts
Yet again, the “anti-war” crowd sets forth credible arguments that are met with nothing but flippant responses.
Sue, Terri, ALLONS, etc., your arguments will be flushed down the commode of history right along with the reputation of the current CIC.
BTW, here’s to the lying liar Alberto finally doing the right thing. Is there anyone else left in BushCo to resign other than Bush and Cheney – who, btw, are responsible for the deaths of 4,000 of our bravest and countless wounded soldiers?
Terri
And just what credible arguments have you made CF? Oh and by the way, if you check the information that was put out yesterday in the media, Pace stated emphatically that he would not call for Troop withdrawls or speak out against the war.
Most everyone knows my opinion about most politicians, so honestly I could care less what the majority of them say, Warner included.
sue
CF, please point out one “credible argument” that you have made here. State it clearly, obviously I, and everyone else here missed it some where. All you have done here is Bush bash, and condescend, which is all you ever do. I’m still waiting for you to actually make a point, as are everyone else here.
CriticalFacts
Hmmm. Maybe Pace is a flipflopper then, as we all know what he has stated previously about the wisdom of the surge and the strain on the military that has and will come through continuing the presence in Iraq.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pace24aug24,0,43964.story?coll=la-home-center
SSgtJ
Thank you Sue for your kind words.
I have been following this thread off and on hoping I might actually learn something. Guess I have. The ‘anti-war’ crowd appear to be nothing more than a hate machine. I say that with true sadness. Was hoping that some communication could actually happen here. All we get from CF is left wing spin (NYTimes, CNN, NBC etc). He uses the same left wing sources to justify his distortions. Seems to me that there are actual good reason to be anti-war. I for one, actually do hate ALL war, but we are already in this one, so it is NO LONGER OPTIONAL. Most of my fellow ‘warriors’ hate ALL war, but again, we know, sometimes it is not an option to turn the other cheek.
Does anyone on the left actually think that Hillary Clinton and Joe Leiberman were outsmarted by Bush who and tricked them into voting for the war?
Does anyone on the left actually think that the violence would just stop the day we pulled out of Iraq? Does anyone really believe that Iran will stay out of Iraq the day we pull out? Is that what you want CF, Iran in Iraq from the east, Syria in from the west and Turkey in from the northwest? How many children will be killed then?
We don’t need CNN or FOX to do our thinking for us. We can use a little logic already.
To those (many) of you who actually read the WHOLE article (not just the headlines). Thank you. We need more people who can actually think for themselves and not just repeat talking points.
ALLONS
CriticalFacts,
You know what. What ever you are. I am restraining my self in the hope you can post something worth while. But I dought it. All you do is repeat your Mantra. You can quote the LA latrine and the NY dunghole all you want.
Now remember. I am restraining my self. But do me a favor. Look up SABOT.
BTW. Where is your buddy Ryan?
ALLONS
CriticalFacts
SSgtJ:
Your thesis appears to rest entirely on a single premise: that if we continue in Iraq, success will be had. I would be interested in your response were you to assume the opposite premise: no matter how long we stay in Iraq, success will not be had. What would your conclusion be as to future course of action were you to start from that premise, rather than your own? Just curious.
As to staying in the war because we are already there, you raise what is sometimes referred the “sunk-cost” theory. Bush has relied on the theory for years now to support staying in Iraq as do most of the pro-war posters on this sight and ASM.
http://www.slate.com/id/2125910/
What I find most interesting about your comment, though, is you raise the very arguments – e.g., Iran and Iraq and mass slaughter of innocents – that compel not removing Saddam in the first place. Indeed, the very scenarios you raise were raised well in advance of the invasion by many – including our very own Dick Cheney – during the first gulf war.
So, while you get your news (talking points??) from Hannity and Limpbaugh, I think I’ll stick with the NYTimes for mine.
ALLONS
SSgtJ,
Welcome to the Left Wing. They do not want to talk. It is,” their way or no way”. Just check out moveon.org . There are more sites but this is the biggest. They have become powerfull enough to get all the democrats running for President to attend their get together instead of the annual meeting of the democrat party. CriticalFacts has become their puppy dog expressing their spin.
ALLONS
sue
The articles you have linked to do not support your rhetoric. The second article is nothing more than an op ed piece and is not “fact” as you claim to present here all the time. As are most of the links you provide. Left wing op ed pieces are hardly the stuff that “critical” facts consist of. They do not add to an intelligent debate or discussion. The other article about General Pace, if you actually took the time to read it you might try to understand that he is NOT supporting your stance. He is merely talking about readiness. They are two entirely different things.
As for yours and “Ryan’s” (if that is indeed who he really is) thing about Cheney’s statement, if you believe that the world now is exactly the same as it was in 1994 when those statements were made, and do not understand the threats to our Country and our life as we know it, you both are going to need a MUCH bigger glass.
ALLONS
Sue,
Good Post.
Let’s see what other BS CriticalFacts can come up with. I say BS because he can NEVER provide a REAL FACT.
ALLONS
PS. CriticalFacts have you looked up SABOT?
Miriam Sirag
There isn’t really any point in responding to you, CF, but I will say that SSgtJ isn’t presuming that “if we continue in Iraq, success will be had” (what ever you mean by that). He’s saying that if we hadn’t taken out Saddam, we would be looking at more attacks on American civilians on American soil.
According to you, the there are only two assumptions that can be made: either “if we continue in Iraq, success will be had” or “no matter how long we stay in Iraq, success will not be had.” But what if neither one turns out to be true. Life is messy like that. You have some success here and lose some ground there.
It is my belief…as it is of most of the “pro-war” crowd…that there is a time for war and a time for peace. The mantra of the anti-war crowd is there is never a time for war. We should just sing lullabies, meditate and stuff cotton in our ears so we can’t hear the airplanes, bombs or what ever other method of mass destruction those who hate us (simply because we exist) decide to cook up. Then we can all die happy little Smerfs.
I’ve lived too long in Muslim countries to be deceived into thinking that if we ignore Islam, it will go away. The goal of Islam is forced world domination, period. Do I love Bush? No. Do I think military might is the be-all and end-all of what we can do in the Middle East? No, it’s not even the be-all of what we are currently doing in the Middle East.
Now, that’s all I have to say to you…which I actually didn’t write for you because I know you’re blind to any other option other than your own (or the opinion of whomever you copied it from).
sue
Thank you ALLONS! Excellent analogy by the way but it might be wasted!!
“BTW. Where is your buddy Ryan?”
The answer to that question is, whining because he thinks he asked critical questions and didn’t get any answers.
CriticalFacts
Miriam:
“He’s saying that if we hadn’t taken out Saddam, we would be looking at more attacks on American civilians on American soil.”
This is one of the most discredited, but often-posited talking points used to justify the war in Iraq. There is no question now (and never really ever was) that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Furthermore, your suggestion that the anti-war crowd will never concede there is a time for war is just plain false, as evidenced by the support for invading Afghanistan that was provided by many in the “anti-war” movement who are so vehemently opposed to the war in Iraq, and were so even prior to the invasion of Iraq.
The fact that you maintain such discredited and false talking point speaks volumes about why the anti-war crowd will never truly be understood by the pro-war crowd, and vice versa.
Ryan
Hey Sue and ALLONS,
The responses you have given to my questions are flippant, dismissive, and combative. Do you treat human beings in your day to day life this way? If so, why?
We have a difference in opinion. We can either discuss the differences and the sources of information that informs those differences and at least come to a respectful understanding, or we can argue with each other. Not a word of any of your responses seems to indicate interest in the former. As I’ve never met you and I find it counterproductive to argue with a complete stranger, I don’t see why I should attempt to carry on a discussion with either of you.
You have an attitude that is far too common in this country. The dismissal of the opinions of anyone else that can be identified as “other”. For democracy to work its citizenship needs to be informed and educated. This includes being informed and educated on ideas that you may not like or outright disagree with. The better one understands an idea, the stronger their opinion is, in agreement or disagreement. This is partly why I thought I’d try a discussion on this board. I was hoping for a good counterpoint to what I’ve been reading and learning about the alleged crimes of the current administration. The link to the Vice President’s comments on Iraq from 1994 being one example I’ve found no explanation for.
Just like you and everyone you love and care about, I am a human being. You can deal with me respectfully and earn my respect or not. If not, I’ll spend my time on those who will deal with me respectfully.
Thank you for your time.
sue
Ryan, I have done nothing wrong to you. I have not been flippant with you. It’s called sarcasm and is a socially acceptable manner in which to deal with things that make no sense. I don’t need your respect and quite frankly don’t much care if I ever get it. You have no interest in respecting me. You are only demanding that I respect you. I asked you to explain your circuitous paragraph which if you had actually reread it, you would find that you countered your own argument. It is ridiculous and supercilious. I was trying to be polite and not embarrass you on here, and give you a chance to rethink what you wrote. I understand that you are young and need patience. That is why I did not just tell you something like, “Wow, what a stupid statement”. First of all, I have more class than that, and second of all, I think that its wise to encourage younger people to join in adult conversations so that they learn how to think and act like adults. If I knew you outside of here, I would have taken my comment off the board and discussed it with you that way so that you would not be embarrassed by the mistake that was made. I think that Seal Patriot can back me up on that. You have been treated as a human being, and I can assure you that if you want to play nice, you should choose who you get in bed with a little more carefully. I can tell you with complete certainty that you are lying with snakes and will be bitten rather unceremoniously and then left swinging in the wind in complete and utter agony. If you think that I have been too harsh on you, Hon, you have got some real pain comin your way shortly. You seem like a nice young man. I could be wrong. You could just be another one of those people who likes to pretend to be someone else.
I also would like to tell you that you came here with preconceived notions of the people here and you are the one who needs to chill. You did not come here for discourse you came here for an argument and to prove to your “friends” that you were “with” them and “against” us. Well, its not about choosing sides here. We discuss. We don’t put up with crap and BS. So if all you have to offer is crap and BS, then expect to be dismissed. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I have not called any one names or been nasty to any one. But to the contrary, I have been treated rather badly and summerally dismissed as usual by CF. I have been told that I’m too uptight because my opinion doesn’t match someone elses and I am constantly condescended to by people who have issues dealing with women in general not to mention what one with a brain does to their ego.
Ryan, I’m sure you come from a good family and that your Dad is a real good man. Please thank him for his service. I however was not one of the people back then who were spitting on him. It is your beloved anti war crowd that you are aligning yourself with now who were doing that. And they are doing that to the Soldiers now and I dont like it. NO ONE disses my guys. NO ONE. I don’t give a darn who you are. NO ONE talks trash about them or tells lies about them. The people you are aligning yourself with have no problems doing that.
So its up to you kiddo, your choice. You say I should do MY homework. Well I have. I make informed choices and I know who I’m in bed with. Do you?? Can you look around and say the same thing?? I think you should go back and take a history lesson about them hon. Click on the archives. Say, around December or January. See what nice people you are playing with. The posts and comments tell all.
Ryan
Sue,
Most of the flippant comments have been from ALLONS, which my response was also addressed to. He is the most obvious instigator of emotion-based “reasoning”, combative and flippant answers, and in general poor thinking. The most flippant thing you’ve said toward me was about my “whining” which I assume you read over on One Utah. At the time of that post, I had not seen a desire to respond respectfully to my posts. Respect by default is important in every social interaction. Most human social interaction works on the tit-for-tat principal, whether we realize it or not. It is much easier to work with someone that is open from the beginning to reasoned, respectful discourse than it is to convince someone who would like to be contentious from step one.
Sarcasm is a great tool when discussing things in person in a light-hearted manner or with people that know you well. Sarcasm in a public internet forum with a complete stranger is means for misunderstanding. When something doesn’t make sense to you, why is sarcasm the first tool you reach for and assuming that the person is younger (and thus less experienced, knowledgeable, and wise as you seemingly have inferred) than you? You can simply ask for further clarification.
While I respect your wish to not embarrass me, please do not worry about this in the future. There is no embarrassment for me when someone points to where I’ve truly made a mistake or spoken with incomplete knowledge. When someone does this to you, are you embarrassed? I’m not beholden to my answers. I’m a seeker of truth, whatever it may be. If I am wrong, please show me. But do it respectfully. Otherwise, I’ll be embarrassed for you.
You understand that I am young and need patience? Do you know me in person, who I am, and how old I am? Do you patronize people often? Please save this type of discussion for someone who cares about the supposed authority of age. People are deluded and make mistakes at all ages. There is wisdom at every age, too.
As for who I’m aligning or getting myself in bed with, I have aligned myself with myself. I have made the aquaintance with a few people who post to One Utah, but I am not their friend, they don’t have my alliance or loyalty, and I’m not defending them. Many of Cliff’s posts and comments are filled with his hate. While he might feel his emotions are justifiable with how he perceives the actions of our current administration, I find them counter-productive most of the time. There can be some value to his communication as he often points to the source that informed his opinion, which are sometimes pretty weak. He’s also running a site that is mostly emotional support group.
As for being harsh, save it. When you’re capable of saying something that can have a direct, negative impact on my life, then I’ll be concerned. You have not.
The second paragraph of your response is filled completely with false assumptions about my motives and who my friends are. What CriticalFacts has said has nothing to do with me. I’m sorry if you’ve been treated poorly and unfairly. No one deserves that.
As for the treatment of US soldiers, I won’t stand for any group to be mistreated, including the men and women who have placed their lives on the line, whether through good judgement or bad. My father is a good man, if also a complex human being that has also made mistakes like the rest of us. He has my respect for his sacrifices, even if at times I don’t have his for my own. I don’t believe he was ever spit upon, and if he was, it was done by specific people who were not interested in my father’s perspective, why he fought in Viet Nam, and what happened to him. Not interested in his humanity. In otherwords, people guilty of the same type of thinking I’m against. People are not inherently wrong, evil, deluded, etc. Its the ideals they espouse and follow. We are in the midst of a moral war. We must be absolutely clear on our morals so we do not contradict them in our defense. During the Viet Nam conflict, there were many emotional people who irrationally struck out against the wrong people. In my opinion, they were not clear on their morals, either. I do not like, support, or stand for anyone to disparage someone in the armed services. I know many people who feel STRONGLY about this on both sides of the war debate. The key error in thinking these people make is assuming everyone has their point of view, access to the same information, and have the ability to form the same opinion they have, and have willfully decided against doing so. For those that can be reached, respectful discourse and reason must be used instead of vilification and vendetta.
As for the part of the post I made that you’d like me to answer for, I will most happily. The key to understanding what I said is based on the word, “primary”. If you attack one’s opinion primarily on who you perceive them to be and how you perceive their motive, this is like I stated in my prior post, putting the conclusion before the facts. You, Sue, have a habit of marginalizing people who you perceive to be “hippies”, children of hippies, or whatever label you’ve chosen to oversimplify the motives and perspective of your fellow Americans and human beings. Here’s my quote of what to do instead:
“Why not try invalidating someone’s argument by first understanding where they are coming from, what it is they are saying, and what went into the formation of their argument?”
I’ll break down my thinking on this:
-Understanding where they are coming from – Instead of depending on an emotional reaction from prior life experience, how about hearing someone out and understanding where they are coming from? If they are anti-war, why? Your comments about “MANY” of them being recycled hippies or children of such is not much different than using any other stereotypical label to marginalize someone’s opinion and political power. I can think of many minority group labels (either minority in numbers or minority in political and economic power) that could be used in place of “hippies” that would rightfully place your comment as prejudiced and racist. No one person’s ideas are completely homogenous with the group they are supposedly a part of.
-What it is they are saying – Identifying the facts (if any) they are stating and where they came from. This is why it is important for those interested in productive discourse need to be able to provide sources of their opinion. Unfortunately, opinions based on “what I heard”, “how I feel”, “fill in the blank said that”, “I read somewhere”, etc. are not valid forms of understanding. These types of sources are as bad as a game of chinese whispers at discerning the facts.
-What went into the formation of their argument – This refers to any original analysis the person may have inferred from their knowledge. If they are offering their own spin if you will. Perhaps its half-cocked BS. Maybe its insightful.
In short, while I see why you’d take what I said as “ridiculous and supercilious”, when asked for further clarification, I can do that.
I could use all the ridiculous rhetoric from the “left” to label people here, but I have not and will not. In my opinion, we are in the midst of a culture war. If we are to solve these issues peacefully and preserve our democratic ideals, we must move on from labeling, marginalization, and dismissing people as “other”. Some examples of “other” speech is as follows: hippies, warmongers, wingnuts, them, those, they, etc. We’re humans first, Americans second. And if we’re going to see the end of this, we’ve got to realize we’re all in this together. We cannot take the intellectual shortcut of stereotypes to lump ideas we don’t like and people that espouse them into groups we’ll listen to and those we won’t.
I have not stated that you should do your homework. I do recommend the book on logical fallacies. It helps to sniff out BS, either someone else’s or one’s own. I’m still working through it. As for me taking a history lesson, my every waking moment is my classroom. Despite my age, I still consider myself a student of life and everyday containing at least one lesson, usually more. I spend most of my waking hours learning. History is written mostly by the victors. I read everything with a bit of skepticism. I do my best to know what I know and know what I don’t know, and to communicate that as best as possible.
SSgtJ
CF,
I give up on you CF. You distort everything anyone says to you. I never said anything about staying in Iraq because we already spent blood and money there. You appear to argue that we should leave Iraq because we should have never gone in the first place. The question should be, since we are there now, what are we going to do about it.
By the way, I don’t get my info from any hate sites, left or right. Joe Leiberman is one of my heros. Is he one of your hated right wing neocons?
Ryan,
Please tell you father ‘Welcome Home’ for me. And, don’t assume that since he was not physically spit on, that he has not been emotionally spit on. Sometimes that seems to hurt worse, and lasts a lot longer.
CriticalFacts
SSgtJ,
While I indeed believe (and have from before the invasion) that we should never have invaded Iraq in 2003, I do not believe that we should leave because we never should have gone in the first place. Rather, I believe that we should leave because (as I stated in a comment above) the war in Iraq is not winnable militarily. So, in my mind, we leave today with the baggage we have suffered, or we leave tomorrow with additional baggage. I simply do not see the rosy outcome that pro-war folks predict – democracy or whatever. It was a fool’s errand to invade Iraq, as many predicted, and no we are paying the piper. The sunk-cost fallacy is completely apt in this regard.
ALLONS
Ryan,
The only thing I said direct to you was.
“Ryan,
I love your left wing double speak. Case closed”.
I do find it a little strange that when CriticalFacts posts your are close behind?
ALLONS
ALLONS
Ryan,
Sorry I forgot to tell you again.
I love your left wing double speak. Case closed.
ALLONS
Ryan
ALLONS, that’s pretty flippant in my opinion. I’m not sure where I can find an honest attempt at rational discourse in that response or any other you’ve posted. The other comments you’ve made, whether directed at myself or someone else, are about the same.
As for your inference about myself and CriticalFacts, you can believe whatever you wish. I will state for the record that I have no idea who he is and thus, do not necessarily agree with what he has said. If it helps you to believe that everyone that disagrees with you come from the same place and might very well be the same person, enjoy that false comfort.
Ryan
ALLONS,
You do understand that if you go through life trying to dismiss and piss everyone off who disagrees with you, you’ll end up with only people that mirror your weak logic surrounding you. If that’s the way you like it, so be it.
ALLONS
Ryan,
I love your use of the word flippant. You use it so well. I also like how you expain to me about my ways of, “piss everyone off who disagrees with you.” Sorry I didn’t mean to piss you off. I dismissed you!!! That’s all. As for attacking? Please reread your own posts on this thread. You say alot but you know, you do not say much even with all that verbage or should I say garbage that you post. All anyone has to do is read your tripe. Hey that is a new word for you. Tripe…
ALLONS
ALLONS
Has anyone noticed that the Left on this site has to recycle? Or should I say reinvent them selves???
I guess they get into a line waiting to be called up when needed just like the BORG. First we had CF followed by Ryan and now we have Cliff. Who will be next???
ALLONS
PS Cliff. I do remember that I can take the gloves off for you.
Miriam
CF, talking to you is like talking to the air. You never hear what I am saying, only insert your own meaning in a few words I say. That’s why my comments weren’t actually for you, they were just addressing your comments. Arguing with you is only a waste of breath. It’s better just to laugh. So I’m going a way now, chuckling all the way. BYE DUDE!!!
Cpl M
Some of you may notice that multiple comments have been deleted. Most of you know why, but let me explain for those that haven’t been around as long. Cliff has engaged in a lot of shady comments in the past. I won’t go into it too deep here, but search the site for MacSockpuppets Acts I and II for background info. Act I was written by CJ and I, Act II was written by me.
Cliff’s comments are once again being sent to the trash bin. Let me remind all of you that topic hijacking and useless commentary isn’t a good thing. Also, don’t feed the banned trolls.
sue
Ryan you marginalized yourself when the first words from you on this site were, and I quote, “Is anyone on this site capable of critical thought?” That is not the way to start serious discourse. You have jumped into the middle of something that has been going on for months. And you had your conclusions all drawn by what you had read about the people here. You are the one who came here half cocked and NO you did NOT ask one pointed question. I hardly think that your question was anything less than insulting. You have made all kinds of assumptions, you don’t know me, though you pretend to and you have jumped down my throat in the true style of the people who sent you here in the first place. I have respect for people who deserve my respect. I don’t much care if you like my sarcasm or approve of it. It makes no difference to me. You stay out of my face and I will stay out of yours. That is the best I will do for you. I find your tone very insulting, condescending and quite cheeky for someone who has so little of substance to say. Your posts have been marginal, and critical, and you are guilty of every thing you have accused me and Allons of. And by the way, HE deserves your respect. I’m sure you have no idea why and couldnt care less.
sue
Thank you dahhling!!
ALLONS
CPL M,
What a shame. I was looking forward to the spar with Cliff. But your the Boss. I will post a bit that I found for Cliff.
Don’t expect you to read through all of this. I did hear from 82nd. Thanks. I will do what I can to help him out even though he has a fear of dogs. I can’t figure some people out:)
ALLONS
William Jefferson Clinton- Impeached by the House of Representatives over allegations of perjury and obstruction of justice, but acquitted by the Senate. Scandals include Whitewater – Travelgate Gennifer Flowersgate – Filegate – Vince Fostergate – Whitewater Billing Recordsgate – Paula Jonesgate- Lincoln Bedroomgate – Donations from Convicted Drug and Weapons Dealersgate – Lippogate – Chinagate – The Lewinsky Affair – Perjury and Jobs for Lewinskygate – Kathleen Willeygate – Web Hubbell Prison Phone Callgate – Selling Military Technology to the Chinesegate – Jaunita Broaddrick Gate – Lootergate – Pardongate
Edward Moore Kennedy – Democrat – U. S. Senator from Massachusetts. Pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, after his car plunged off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island killing passenger Mary Jo Kopechne.
Barney Frank – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1981 to present. Admitted to having paid Stephen L. Gobie, a male prostitute, for sex and subsequently hiring Gobie as his personal assistant. Gobie used the congressman’s Washington apartment for prostitution. A move to expel Frank from the House of Representatives failed and a motion to censure him failed.
DNC – The Federal Election Commission imposed $719,000 in fines against participants in the 1996 Democratic Party fundraising scandals involving contributions from China, Korea and other foreign sources. The Federal Election Commission said it decided to drop cases against contributors of more than $3 million in illegal DNC contributions because the respondents left the country or the corporations are defunct.
Sandy Berger – Democrat – National Security Advisor during the Clinton Administration. Berger became the focus of a criminal investigation after removing highly classified terrorism documents and handwritten notes from the National Archives during preparations for the Sept. 11 commission hearings.
Robert Torricelli – Democrat – Withdrew from the 2002 Senate race with less than 30 days before the election because of controversy over personal gifts he took from a major campaign donor and questions about campaign donations from 1996.
James McGreevey – Democrat – New Jersey Governor . Admitted to having a gay affair. Resigned after allegations of sexual harassment, rumors of being blackmailed on top of fundraising investigations and indictments.
Jesse Jackson – Democrat – Democratic candidate for President. Admitted to having an extramarital affair and fathering a illegitimate child.
Gary Condit – Democrat – US Democratic Congressman from California. Condit had an affair with an intern. Condit, covered up the affair and lied to police after she went missing. No charges were ever filed against Condit. Her remains were discovered in a Washington DC park..
Sowande Ajumoke Omokunde – Democrat – the son of newly elected U.S. Rep. Gwen Moore, was booked on charges of criminal damage to property for allegedly slashing tires on 20 vans and cars rented by the Republican Party for use in Election Day voter turnout efforts.
Daniel David Rostenkowski – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Illinois from 1959 to 1995. Indicted on 17 felony charges- pleaded guilty to two counts of misuse of public funds and sentenced to seventeen months in federal prison.
Melvin Jay Reynolds – U.S. Representative from Illinois from 1993 to 1995. Convicted on sexual misconduct and obstruction of justice charges and sentenced to five years in prison.
Charles Coles Diggs, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Michigan from 1955 to 1980. Convicted on eleven counts of mail fraud and filing false payroll forms- sentenced to three years in prison.
George Rogers – Democrat – Massachusetts State House of Representatives from 1965 to 1970. M000ember of Massachusetts State Senate from 1975 to 1978. Convicted of bribery in 1978 and sentenced to two years in prison.
Don Siegelman – Democrat Governor Alabama – indicted in a bid-rigging scheme involving a maternity-care program. The charges accused Siegelman and his former chief of staff of helping Tuscaloosa physician Phillip Bobo rig bids. Siegelman was accused of moving $550,000 from the state education budget to the State Fire College in Tuscaloosa so Bobo could use the money to pay off a competitor for a state contract for maternity care.
John Murtha, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania. Implicated in the Abscam sting, in which FBI agents impersonating Arab businessmen offered bribes to political figures; Murtha was cited as an unindicted co-conspirator
Gerry Eastman Studds – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1973 to 1997. The first openly gay member of Congress. Censured by the House of Representatives for having sexual relations with a teenage House page.
James C. Green – Democrat – North Carolina State House of Representatives from 1961 to 1977. Charged with accepting a bribe from an undercover FBI agent, but was acquitted. Convicted of tax evasion in 1997.
Frederick Richmond – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New York from 1975 to 1982. Arrested in Washington, D.C., in 1978 for soliciting sex from a minor and from an undercover police officer – pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor. Also – charged with tax evasion, marijuana possession, and improper payments to a federal employee – pleaded guilty.
Raymond Lederer – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1977 to 1981. Implicated in the Abscam sting – convicted of bribery and sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000.
Harrison Arlington Williams, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Senator from New Jersey from 1959 to 1970. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Allegedly accepted an 18% interest in a titanium mine. Convicted of nine counts of bribery, conspiracy, receiving an unlawful gratuity, conflict of interest, and interstate travel in aid of racketeering. Sentenced to three years in prison and fined $50,000.
Frank Thompson, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New Jersey from 1955 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting, convicted on bribery and conspiracy charges. Sentenced to three years in prison
Michael Joseph Myers – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1976 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting – convicted of bribery and conspiracy; sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000; expelled from the House of Representatives on October 2, 1980.
John Michael Murphy – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New York from 1963 to 1981. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Convicted of conspiracy, conflict of interest, and accepting an illegal gratuity. Sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000.
John Wilson Jenrette, Jr – Democrat – U.S. Representative from South Carolina from 1975 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Convicted on bribery and conspiracy charges and sentenced to prison
Neil Goldschmidt – Democrat – Oregon governor. Admitted to having an illegal sexual relationship with a 14-year-old teenager while he was serving as Mayor of Portland.
Alcee Lamar Hastings – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Florida. Impeached and removed from office as federal judge in 1989 over bribery charges.
Marion Barry – Democrat – mayor of Washington, D.C., from 1979 to 1991 and again from 1995 to 1999. Convicted of cocaine possession after being caught on videotape smoking crack cocaine. Sentenced to six months in prison.
Mario Biaggi – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New York from 1969 to 1988. Indicted on federal charges that he had accepted bribes in return for influence on federal contracts.Convicted of obstructing justice and accepting illegal gratuities. Tried in 1988 on federal racketeering charges and convicted on 15 felony counts.
Lee Alexander – Democrat – Mayor of Syracuse, N.Y. from 1970 to 1985. Was indicted over a $1.5 million kickback scandal. Pleaded guilty to racketeering and tax evasion charges. Served six years in prison.
Bill Campbell – Democrat – Mayor of Atlanta. Indicted and charged with fraud over claims he accepted improper payments from contractors seeking city contracts.
Frank Ballance – Democrat – Congressman North Carolina. Pleaded guilty to one charge of conspiracy to commit mail fraud and money laundering related to mishandling of money by his charitable foundation.
Hazel O’Leary – Democrat – Secretary of Energy during the Clinton Administration – O’leary took trips all over the world as Secretary with as many 50 staff members and at times rented a plane, which was used by Madonna during her concert tours.
Lafayette Thomas – Democrat – Candidate for Tennessee State House of Representatives in 1954. Sheriff of Davidson County, from 1972 to 1990. Indicted in federal court on 54 counts of abusing his power as sheriff. Pleaded guilty to theft and mail fraud; sentenced to five years in prison.
Mary Rose Oakar – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Ohio from 1977 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor charges of funneling $16,000 through fake donors.
David Giles – Democrat – candidate for U.S. Representative from Washington in 1986 and 1990. Convicted in June 2000 of child rape.
Gary Siplin – Democrat state senator Florida- found guilty of third-degree grand theft of $5,000 or more, a felony, and using services of employees for his candidacy.
Edward Mezvinsky – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Iowa from 1973 to 1977. Indicted on 56 federal fraud charges.
Lena Swanson – Democrat – Member of Washington State Senate in 1997. Pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting unlawful payments from veterans and former prisoners of war.
Abraham J. Hirschfeld – Democrat – candidate in Democratic primary for U.S. Senator from New York in 1974 and 1976. Offered Paula Jones $1 million to drop her sexual harassment lawsuit against President Bill Clinton. Convicted in 2000 of trying to hire a hit man to kill his business partner.
Henry Cisneros – Democrat – U.S. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development from 1993 to 1997. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of lying to the FBI.
James A. Traficant Jr. – Member of House of Representatives from Ohio. Expelled from Congress after being convicted of corruption charges. Sentenced today to eight years in prison for accepting bribes and kickbacks.
John Doug Hays – Democrat – member of Kentucky State Senate from 1980 to 1982 Found guilty of mail fraud for submitting false campaign reports stemming from an unsuccessful run for judge. He was sentenced to six months in prison to be followed by six months of home confinement and three years of probation.
Henry J. Cianfrani – Democrat – Pennsylvania State Senate from 1967 to 1976. Convicted on federal charges of racketeering and mail fraud for padding his Senate payroll. Sentenced to five years in federal prison.
David Hall – Democrat – Governor of Oklahoma from 1971 to 1975. Indicted on extortion and conspiracy charges. Convicted and sentenced to three years in prison.
John A. Celona – Democrat – A former state senator was charged with the three counts of mail fraud. Federal prosecutors accused him of defrauding the state and collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars from CVS Corp. and others while serving in the legislature. Celona has agreed to plead guilty to taking money from the CVS pharmacy chain and other companies that had interest in legislation. Under the deal, Celona agreed to cooperate with investigators. He faces up to five years in federal prison on each of the three counts and a $250,000 fine
Allan Turner Howe – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Utah from 1975 to 1977. Arrested for soliciting a policewoman posing as a prostitute.
Jerry Cosentino – Democrat – Illinois State Treasurer. Pleaded guilty to bank fraud – fined $5,000 and sentenced to nine months home confinement.
Joseph Waggonner Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Louisiana from 1961 to 19 79. Arrested in Washington, D.C. for soliciting a policewoman posing as a prostitute
Albert G. Bustamante – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Texas from 1985 to 1993. Convicted in 1993 on racketeering and bribery charges and sentenced to prison.
Lawrence Jack Smith – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Florida from 1983 to 1993. Sentenced to three months in federal prison for tax evasion.
David Lee Walters – Democrat – Governor of Oklahoma from 1991 to 1995. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor election law violation.
James Guy Tucker, Jr. – Democrat – Governor of Arkansas from 1992 to 1996. Resigned in July 1996 after conviction on federal fraud charges as part of the Whitewater investigation.
Walter Rayford Tucker – Democrat – Mayor of Compton, California from 1991 to 1992; U.S. Representative from California from 1993 to 1995. Sentenced to 27 months in prison for extortion and tax evasion.
William McCuen – Democrat – Secretary of State of Arkansas from 1985 to 1995. Admitted accepting kickbacks from two supporters he gave jobs, and not paying taxes on the money. Admitted to conspiring with a political consultant to split $53,560 embezzled from the state in a sham transaction. He was indicted on corruption charges. Pleaded guilty to felony counts tax evasion and accepting a kickback. Sentenced to 17 years in prison.
Walter Fauntroy – Democrat – Delegate to U.S. Congress from the District of Columbia from 1971 to 1991. Charged in federal court with making false statements on financial disclosure forms. Pleaded guilty to one felony count and sentenced to probation.
Carroll Hubbard, Jr. – Democrat – Kentucky State Senate from 1968 to 1975 and U.S. Representative from Kentucky from 1975 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to conspiring to defraud the Federal Elections Commission and to theft of government property; sentenced to three years in prison.
Joseph Kolter – Democrat – member of Pennsylvania State House of Representatives from 1969 to 1982 and U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1983 to 1993. Indicted by a Federal grand jury on five felony charges of embezzlement at the U.S. House post office. Pleaded guilty.
Webster Hubbell – Democrat – Chief Justice of Arkansas State Supreme Court in 1983. Pleaded guilty to federal mail fraud and tax evasion charges – sentenced to 21 months in prison.
Nicholas Mavroules – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1979 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to charges of tax fraud and accepting gratuities while in office.
Carl Christopher Perkins – Democrat – Kentucky State House of Representatives from 1981 to 1984 and U.S. Representative from Kentucky from 1985 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to bank fraud in connection with the House banking scandal. Perkins wrote overdrafts totaling about $300,000. Pleaded guilty to charges of filing false statements with the Federal Election Commission and false financial disclosure reports. Sentenced to 21 months in prison.
Richard Hanna – Democrat – U.S. Representative from California from 1963 to 1974. Received payments of about $200,000 from a Korean businessman in what became known as the “Koreagate” influence buying scandal. Pleaded guilty and sentenced to federal prison.
Angelo Errichetti – Democrat – New Jersey State Senator was sentenced to six years in prison and fined $40,000 for his involvement in Abscam.
Daniel Baugh Brewster – Democrat – U.S. Senator from Maryland. Indicted on charges of accepting illegal gratuity while in Senate.
Thomas Joseph Dodd – Democrat – U.S. Senator from Connecticut. Censured by the Senate for financial improprieties, having diverted $116,000 in campaign and testimonial funds to his own use
Edward Fretwell Prichard, Jr. – Democrat – Delegate to Democratic National Convention from Kentucky. Convicted of vote fraud in federal court in connection with ballot-box stuffing. Served five months in prison.
Jerry Springer – Democrat – Resigned from Cincinnati City Council in 1974 after admitting to paying a prostitute with a personal check, which was found in a police raid on a massage parlor.
Guy Hamilton Jones, Sr. – Democrat -Arkansas State Senate. Convicted on federal tax charges and expelled from the Arkansas Senate.
Daniel Flood – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1945 to 1947, 1949 to 1953 and 1955 to 1980. Pleaded guilty to a conspiracy charge involving payoffs and sentenced to probation.
Otto Kerner, Jr – Democrat – Governor of Illinois from 1961 to 1968. While serving as Governor, he and another official made a gain of over $300,000 in a stock deal. Convicted on 17 counts of bribery, conspiracy, perjury, and related charges. Sentenced to three years in federal prison and fined $50,000.
George Crockett, Jr. – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Michigan. Served four months in federal prison for contempt of court following his defense of a Communist leader on trial for advocating the overthrow of the government.
Cornelius Edward Gallagher – Democrat – U.S. Representative from New Jersey from 1959 to 1973. Indicted on federal charges of income tax evasion, conspiracy, and perjury
Mark B. Jimenez – Democrat fundraiser – sentenced to 27 months in prison on charges of tax evasion and conspiracy to defraud the United States and commit election financing offenses.
Bobby Lee Rush – Democrat – U.S. Representative from Illinois. As a Black Panther, spent six months in prison on a weapons charge.
Bolley ”Bo” Johnson – Democrat – Former Florida House Speaker – received a two-year term for tax evasion.
Roger L. Green – Democrat – Brooklyn Democrat Assemblyman. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for accepting travel reimbursement for trips he did not pay for and was sentenced to fines and probation.
Gloria Davis – Democrat – Bronx assemblywoman. Pleaded guilty to second-degree bribe-taking.
SSgtJ
Allons, nice home work. Thanks for sharing.
I guess I finally got my answers from CF.
Sunk cost kept coming up, and how he was against the war before it started. The second thing is, he wanted to start with the assumption that we will lose anyway. Sounds like an extention of point one. Guess that answers my questions.
Thanks to all of you for the support.
ALLONS
SSgtJ,
I see the democrats of today following in the foot steps of the democrats of 1970′s. Where they cut off the funding for our allies in South East Asia. In 1973, the US withdrew from Vietnam. The majority of that country had been won but there was still a war going on. In 1975 they ran out of money thanks to the democrats in this country. Ammo and equipment costs money. The democrats cut that off!!! How many died because of this I do not know. It has been estimated to be in the millions through out the region. I see it coming again in the ME.
ALLONS
sue
SSgtJ, you were in a no win with CF. He has been doing this here for about a year that I know of. He comes, he attacks, he throws out left wing garbage and then gets all condescending and nasty because people get tired of showing him facts that he refuses to look at. Then he and his little furry friends scurry back to their website and call the people here nasty names, link to this site and tell their readers all kinds of lies which of course they are ignorant enough to believe. CF is a poser who uses many different names on different sites thinking he can spread his crap so that people think that there are “more of them” but we all know who he is and who his furry little friends are. (Even when they play tricks with the IP #’s) Allons I’m sure knows what I’m talking about here. All I can really say to you is that you have done your country a great service, much more than most people. Allons too, and we here at ASP are grateful for the service that you have given to your country, for all of us. Even the losers. We thank you for giving us all the Freedoms we often take for granted.
My question to CF remains unanswered, and I have asked him many times. If we are so offensive in our ideas here, why does he keep coming back?
CriticalFacts
“If we are so offensive in our ideas here, why does he keep coming back?”
Because I care! Both about you and our country!
PS Allons, Nice cut and paste job! But what’s your point?
sue
That is so laughable CF.
ALLONS
CriticalFacts,
You remind me of a puppy dog. Now keep those big brown eyes open. Maybe and I say maybe you will find someone who cares about the BS that you post.
CriticalFacts. Sorry I have to take that back. A puppy dog is way,way,way above your level on the food chain of life. I could suggest a few as to where you reside.
Just let me know and I will be more than happy to tell you where you reside. OOPS. I am sorry. Was that you I stepped on as you crawled on the ground.
ALLONS
Ryan
ALLONS,
I guess we’ll chock up your point of view in a few words, “if you don’t agree with me, I don’t like you, get out of my face”.
It looks like CriticalFacts and I came here for similar reasons. To understand and to engage in dialog, because we care about this country. That means stepping outside of one’s own emotional support group, or comfort zone, and engage with those that don’t have the same opinion.
I can’t speak for CriticalFacts, but I did come here with good intentions from the start. As Sue pointed out, some of my phrasing wasn’t the best. Some of my words were critical from the first step. But my intentions were for the best. I have learned from that experience.
It is posts like your last one that disappoint me. I mean no disrespect, but when one becomes an adult, a real one, one doesn’t use the kind of dialog as you have above to converse with other individuals. What you say does not reflect poorly on CriticalFacts, despite what he might have said that you believe justified it. It reflects poorly on you. Arrogance, pettiness, and being vicious are not morals.
As I am not the moral police, have fun with your juvenile remarks. This is my last post to this site, so don’t worry about me continuing to bother this close-knit community. I don’t have the time to sift through the noise here to gain the insights you might have to offer me. I’ll keep on searching for people who are interested in the truth, whatever that might be, no matter how much we might disagree. I do not need truth given in a dogmatic fashion.
Sandra
I just wish we all could live in a peaceful world..and that no man nor woman should have to die. This war was called by our president..because of “weapons of mass destruction”…which may or may not be the truth. I am by no means big on politics..and in most folks eyes probably really naive…and truthfully I really cannot understand…why?..this war must go on! We all will remember 9-11-2001!!! That day will forever be engraved in our hearts, minds and souls. But I truly do not believe that the people that died that day would want the war to still be going on in their remembrance! This war has been going on for far too long! Why does it hurt a soldier for someone to NOT want this war?? “I” by no means would treat anyone the way Vietnam veterans were treated!!!! I still cannot believe how they were treated. I want all of our soldiers HOME!! Every one of them!!
I hope that doesn’t offend any of them. I would not mistreat them because they had to go fight in some foreign land…I am not angry with them…I am angry with our own government!
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