A Marine’s Lament

— By Patriot

CPL Mark Finelli thinks our troops are idiots and that we need the WWII style draft (not the “elite friendly” Vietnam style one). Miss Ladybug disagrees with that assessment. Check out her post and weigh in on the issue.

(21) Readers Comments

sue
09/06/2007 at 12:03 pm

I think Miss Ladybug is right. I know a lot of Soldiers and Marines, and the Cpl couldn’t be farther from the truth in his assessment of the level of intelligence in the military. Many of the MOS’s call for highly intelligent individuals (IQ level requirements) and some silver spoon fed preppie isnt always the brightest bulb in the box. I don’t think he is being realistic. I also know Infantry guys who have college degrees and had promising careers in other fields but had a calling to join the service and are doing what they truly want to be doing. It has been discussed here about how the guys would rather have someone next to them who has their back that they can count on to be there because they are doing what they want to be doing, rather than someone who doesn’t give a dang because they were forced to be there. The idea of a draft is highly unpalatable to most Americans. Charlie Rangle has been trying for several years now to reinstate the draft. It’s going no where.

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Zsu
09/06/2007 at 4:12 pm

Bravo Sue and Miss Ladybug. Cpl Mark Finelli may be a product of mind-numbing, an educational process aimed at destroying America’s freedom. Ayn Rand warned a quarter century how liberalism seeks to diminish America’s heart as well as her intelligence. Please read Ayn Rand’s Introduction to Leonard Peikoff’s “the Ominous Parallels”.

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Grumpy
09/06/2007 at 6:21 pm

This is an interesting debate, but in both views, something is seriously missing. For the sake of discussion, let’s call it, “historical wisdom”. With this, we need to add a real large dose of something called, “a reality check”. Miss Ladybug and CPL Finelli, both have good points, but also both have weaknesses. Let there be no doubts, I believe both of these people are good people, no villians. Now, let’s begin. CPL, you raise the issue of the draft. You suggest two models, WWII and Viet Nam. Are these the only two models? Would you consider something like Israel’s model, where both males and females serve. The males must serve 2 years and the females for one year. This does NOT in any way, reflect on our present troops. When the Israeli troops leave the military, they are trained. Consider how this all fits into their view of national security. College, marriage and children are not excuses. Miss Ladybug, we need to grow up and look at this war differently. I saw a reporter talk with a pro-victory college group, he asked how many were going into the military. There were no replies. This was truly sad, their actions speak much louder than their words. We can not continue, without expanding and supplying a brand new trained military. This GWoT will last for many generations, so let’s prepare.

I want to really thank the CPL and Miss Ladybug for their courage on this subject.

Respectfully,
Grumpy

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sue
09/06/2007 at 7:49 pm

Grumpy you make good points and I think I might agree with you if we were lacking in Soldiers. The enlistment and reenlistment goals have all been consistently met to the best of my knowledge. If we are lacking then the Generals need to be saying so, louder than they have been if they have been because I haven’t heard them. There is an army. I am not against some sort of service for all young people. Most have no clue what its like to actually sacrifice for others, especially in the form of volunteerism, so you would get no argument from me there. But I don’t know if forced conscription in the army is the answer. It would once again, in this current climate, lead to the same derisive, hateful protests that were so prevalent with Viet Nam. It’s just my opinion, but I believe the biggest obstacle for our military readiness is all the pork barrel spending, the partisan bickering and the refusal of the left to actually acknowledge that there in fact actually IS a GWoT!!

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Miss Ladybug
09/06/2007 at 8:06 pm

Grumpy~

I do think we need a larger military, but I don’t think a draft is the way to go about it. It took a while to cut back on the military, it will take time to build it back up. Plus, doesn’t Congress have to authorize expanding the size of the active military? The President, nor the Pentagon, can just say “the US needs a bigger military” and then make it so. Congress has to authorize AND fund an expanded force. And, we need less of the anti-military attitudes from colleges and universities, and even local school districts, around the nation. Both universities I have graduated from had ROTC programs (one just AFROTC, the other both AFROTC and AROTC). Both are state institutions. Many “big name” schools don’t want ROTC, or even recruiters, on campus. We don’t need attitudes such as Senator Kerry that only stupid people get “stuck in Iraq”. I don’t know how to fix those attitudes for the people who hold them. If I knew that answer, I’d darn well be doing something about it…

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Grumpy
09/06/2007 at 11:26 pm

Sue and Miss Ladybug, Freedom is not free, there is a very expensive price for this freedom. We need to bring new people into the U.S. Military. Do you really want to start to solve this problem? This can become part of a family’s mission statement. I agree with you, I wish there was a way around this issue of the draft. We need to face the issue there is an “end of useful life barrier for our military people”. The same is true of all the fancy technology. Let’s go back into history, July 1967, the U.S.S. Forrestal was under way to the Gulf of Tonkin. While under way, she was carrying WWII ordinance. The one thing they did not consider, was the mixture of age and salt air and its impact on the weapons. Then one day, one went off on its own causing massive damage and massive loss of life. The same is true of people. We need to learn from history and not condemned to repeat it.

Grumpy

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Miss Ladybug
09/07/2007 at 12:13 am

Grumpy~

I don’t understand what you’re getting at. I know very well that freedom isn’t free. I grew up in a family that understood that. My father served nearly 27 years. He was a Cold Warrior; German linguist and MI his entire time in the Army. My brother served an enlistment in the Army as well. He was an MP. I don’t have a husband or kids, but you can be damn sure that I will teach any children I may be blessed with an appreciation for this nation and those who protect it. If a child of mine wanted to join the military, I would be proud of them for their choice.

And what’s this “end of useful life barrier for personnel”? Yes, soldiers get injured in war, or have other issues (illness, etc.) that makes them unable to do some jobs. But as I said, my dad served nearly 27 years. That’s a pretty long “useful life” in the military, if you ask me.

Do we need a larger military? Hell, yes. Let’s see Congress start authorizing an expansion of our regular military forces (i.e. – not including Reserves or National Guard), and funding it. Then, let’s let the recruiters for the services and those who are tasked with retaining experienced personnel do their jobs. We’re in a tight job market, historically, so the military has to compete with other employers. Let’s see Congress authorize increased pay and benefits for our military so it can better compete with civilian employment opportunities.

And I’m not sure what the Gulf of Tonkin has to do with the discussion at hand. Are you trying to say you agree with Cpl Finelli, and that we’ll only have adequate funding for war materiels if we have a draft? As I’ve said, I don’t buy that argument. I say trade entitlement spending for defense spending, but good luck getting Congress to slaughter that Golden Calf – too many of them are worried the wouldn’t be able to get re-elected if they slashed entitlement spending. As I noted in my post, as a % of the federal budget, defense and entitlement have traded places over the last 50 years with the explosion of the welfare state.

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sue
09/07/2007 at 2:56 am

Grumpy, I too am well aware of the fact that Freedom is not free. My oldest Uncle enlisted and served in the Army when WWII broke out, was awarded the Bronze star and several other medals during the war, remained in the military and was killed when his plane crashed on the way to serve in Korea. My other Uncle, was a signalman on the Brownson which was sunk by a kamikaze pilot. He was 19 and never had a chance. He got a purple heart as well as several other medals. My Dad was in the Army on his second tour when the oldest one was killed and he was getting ready to ship out to Korea, but was discharged as the only surviving son. My Grampa served in WWI. I do have children, neither of them aspired to the military, but if they did, I would support their choice and be here sending packages and letters and love as I do for the guys that I do have. But they both understand what it means too. They actively help in my support of the troops.

As I said before, if we are in need of a bigger Army, someone has to start making noises because I haven’t heard them. Recruitment goals and reenlistment goals need to be set higher because right now, they are all being met. And you will have to start with Congress as Miss Ladybug has said. She is correct about the spending and the Welfare State that we are in. Politicians are nothing more than prostitutes, selling themselves for votes. Wouldn’t it be refreshing to have an HONEST politician in Washington to breathe life and common sense back into that cesspool of corruption and stupidity. And if I sound jaded about corrupt politics its because I live in New Jersey. The only political cesspool that is bigger than Washington DC!!

I too dont understand your bringing in the U.S.S. Forrestal, unless you are saying that our military needs to be upgraded and retooled. This is being accomplished slowly as far as I know. Our military suffered greatly from the gutting that Clinton did during his terms. Something I believe we can expect to see once again under a Clinton regime, God help us all. It has to do with a complete lack of understanding about the kinds of threats this country faces and an ignorance and unwillingness to grasp who and what the enemy really is.

But as I had said, if we stop all the pork spending and as Miss Ladybug says, stop with all the handouts and let people start being responsible for themselves, maybe we could afford to equip our military better. I got an email forward that talked about how people who work have to take a pee test in many jobs now. They asked why the people on welfare dont have to take one to live off the people who do work. Interesting thought dont you think?? I know there are many who do really need it, but there are many that don’t. We need to rethink the whole social welfare picture if any of this will be solved.

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Liberal Jarhead
09/07/2007 at 4:54 am

As a retired Marine, I think I understand Corporal Finelli’s viewpoint, but I disagree for three reasons.

First, regardless of its having been used in the past, the draft is fundamentally contrary to the value of respect for the citizen’s freedom that I believe and hope America stands for; it could reasonably be called a form of slavery. I think that if the war in Iraq was legitimate and was being run competently, there would be enough volunteers. A big part of the reason the services are having problems with recruitment and retention is that the men and women in uniform see that the executive branch doesn’t care about them.

Perhaps a radical revision of our system might be a good idea, something like Robert Heinlein envisioned in Starship Troopers (the book, not that cheesy movie) – government service was all-volunteer, could be either military or CCC-type work, and no one had to serve, but no one who didn’t serve got to vote.

Secondly, I disagree with his apparent view that the elite running the country are brighter than the rest of us – look at the President, for crying out loud, a man who’s failed and needed to be bailed out at everything he’s ever attempted and who would probably be working the graveyard shift at a 7/11 if he’d been born into an average family. There are a lot of pretty sharp people in the service, even if they don’t have the Ivy League credentials. I think of myself as fairly bright, and I went into the Corps as a basic enlisted Marine with a high school diploma and retired as a captain with three degrees. A lot of the folks I served with were just as smart as I was, some undoubtedly smarter and more talented.

Third, we are now fighting what the military wonks call a fourth generation war, and it calls for expertise and precision rather than numbers or massive firepower. The trigger-pullers we need for this war are special forces types, and you don’t get those from the draft. They tend to be highly dedicated long-term-service people like the Navy’s Seals, the Army’s Green Berets, Rangers, and Delta Force, the Air Force’s Special Ops squadrons, and the Marines’ Force Recon. To complement them, we need a whole lot of non-combat people and resources, who could be military or civilian, to do the kind of Marshall Plan work in Iraq and other places that would give the locals more reason to believe we have their interests in mind. All indications are that this administration doesn’t, though, so that won’t get more than lip service on their watch. The so-called reconstruction is being used as a pipeline to channel money to their corporate sponsors. Part of what we need there is a watchdog office to search out and stop war and reconstruction profiteering, like Harry Truman did during World War II.

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Patriot
09/07/2007 at 7:58 am

LJ,

While I disagree with you on many points here, I just want to thank you for your service to this country.

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sue
09/07/2007 at 10:11 am

Wow LJ, thanks for your service but there are many points in your response that are simply incorrect, starting with your point about retention and recruitment. The numbers have been met and exceeded every month. The stats are available from the DOD. Your “illegitimate war” thing is also a party falsohood and it just goes on and on though you are entitled to your opinion.

And I would hope that you have the Democratically controlled Congress who constantly degrades and demoralizes the military ie John Murtha, John Kerry, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, in mind when you say the “executive branch” and meant to say the legislative branch. Because they are the ones who have been trying to cut the funding and saying all the nasty things about how lousy a job our troops are doing, NOT the President.

While I agree that mistakes have been made, the President has never to the best of my knowledge said anything that would demoralize our military the way Congress has.

I have to respectfully disagree with your post.

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Grumpy
09/07/2007 at 1:57 pm

To Miss Ladybug and Sue: Ladies, I woke up and read what you wrote. It might be spooky for you but I also live in South Jersey. You wrote New Jersey is the place you lived. But our family has lived in South Jersey since before the Revolutionary War. We might even be neighbors.

Let’s just talk a little about the “Forrestal” and why it was important. We need to have those type of events. They happened at a specific time in military history, which was witnessed by many people. It also happened at a specific spot on the planet. This is all important to the relatioship to supporting the objectivity of our observaions. When we live in a world of nothing more than perspectives and opinions, we are on dangerous turf. We as a Nation need more from our citizenry. Perspectives and opinions are important, but they are not the only thing. In many ways, our Nation as a whole must become involved, not just our military. We agree.

Sue, in my view, you took a profound but risky choice, you talked about your sons. The subject was their own view of the military preferences. As I look at them, they can make many choices which will ultimately help secure this Nation.

Both of you, have written of family histories very rich in the military traditions. First, let me thank you for YOUR service, not just your family’s service. It is a good legacy.

Grumpy

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CriticalFacts
09/07/2007 at 2:43 pm

Good points raised by all. Agreed that more participation of the citizenry is needed, which has been a criticism of the current war effort for a long time now by both Dems and Repubs. Too many sacrifice too much for too few, with everyone else just standing on the sidelines trying to figure it all out, or not being bothered.

As to degrading the military, sue, I think statements like that recently made by the current CIC – “We’re kicking ass in Iraq” – have got to have soldier’s heads spinning everywhere. Didn’t the CIC learn anything with his prior attempts at cowboy bravado?

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sealpatriot
09/07/2007 at 9:29 pm

The thing is, drafts are needed for wars where the current numbers can’t supply what is needed on the ground and Iraq’s present situation on the ground isn’t violent enough to escalade to that type of fight. Drafts aren’t for peacekeeping missions which is in fact what most of our operations in the Middle East are, except for the missions where we set out to capture important figures who may be behind anything nefarious which are in fact counter terror missions. Quiet frankly, a draft isn’t necessary, nor is it needed. A draft was needed during World War Two and in Nam but not in any country our troops are operating in nowadays. Not to minimize the threats our troops fight to protect people in their respective AO’s in modern times, but the enemy was far more significant back during both wars and taking the fight to them required that the military supplied all the manpower they can possibly get. That is simply not the case today despite the fact that the enemy we face now isn’t any better than the ones we had faced in our history as a country. As for the statement “we are kicking ass in Iraq” is concerned, I would hardly call that an overstatement because according to the CCT(center for combating terrorism) of the military academy and a Los Angeles Times article(can’t find this one but I’ll try to, I don’t know if I still have the paper since my family has a new dog and we use the old news papers as wee wee pads), today it takes the annual recruiting rates of 47 countries summed together to mount up to the average recruiting rates that one country alone would provide(not saying the country is on the side of terrorists but the terrorists win when they get more recruits because that means they have more support) to terror organizations prior to the attacks on September 11th, 2001. In fact, Al Qeada already hit it’s all time rock bottom after those heinous attacks on the WTC. Today their rates of new comers are even lower(1/20th to be exact according to Ollie North in his book about OIF rebuttling the claims that there are more terrorists because of OIF). Most people of the Middle East feel that people like them who participated in terror activities are like Mobs and are murderers that they don’t want anywhere near their people. I guess fighting violent organizations that are much like Al Qeada in a span of 35 countries across the Middle East and Africa on a daily basis(150 worldwide annually FYI) pretty much pays off, doesn’t it? This proves that Iraq is not the only country in this world to be taking stand against organizations that participate in terror activities. It is also not the only country with a violent reputation to take part in reducing the violence they would see on a regular basis. Cowboy bravado, I don’t think so because this accomplishment is anything but that type of irresponsible behavior. Plus, I just have to add this to my point. There are three crime syndicates that black market weaponry for Al Qeada. One of them is in Africa and the other two are in the Middle East, the one in Africa is an Egyptian based group called ansar al sunna, Their operations had just disbanded two months ago when U.S. paratroopers had eves dropped and raided one of their business deals killing their leader and much of their inner circle. Don’t get me wrong, I dont consider this the end of our fight with Al Qeada despite considering this a glass jaw knock out shot. However, this shouldn’t be minimized because these people are irreplaceable to AQ, unlike Zawahiri, Bin Laden, Zarqawi, and Muhammed who are in fact, replaceable. I will try to find this page again, but it may take a while since I never bookmark the sources I use for personal knowledge since I prefer to bookmark the ones I use for academic knowledge(basically anything that’s school related and is needed for my class research papers). If you want to help look for it too, then look around Slate Magazine’s website, I found this article a while back when I was just surfing their site for fun.

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sue
09/08/2007 at 12:40 am

Grumpy, I’m sorry I still didn’t get your point about the Forrestal and what we need to “learn” from it. I realize that everything that happens happens at a specific time and place but I don’t get what you are driving at could you please explain again, maybe a different way because I’m just not seeing the significance of it.

I agree that we need more from our citizens. We have become a Nation of spoiled brats. The attitudes that I run into are abysmal at best, and its a shame. During WWII, everyone helped. Everything was rationed, the women went to work because all the men went off to fight. This war, a few have gone off to fight, and most of the rest sit on their butts in their comfy arm chairs and quarter back their efforts using the limited one sided information they get from watching Leno and CNN and reading left wing newspapers and blogs doing nothing to actually support the efforts of those protecting their sorry butts but criticize, demean and demoralize. If they actually talked to a Soldier once in a while, they would have a much better understanding of what is actually going on over there. But that would require some effort and sacrifice on their part and they are not willing to make either.

And I don’t feel it a risk to talk about my kids and what they chose. There is nothing wrong with the fact that they chose other paths. They do have that right. But as I said, IF they had chosen differently, I would be here, supporting their decisions and I would mourn if they were lost. But because my own children aren’t over there fighting, I didn’t turn my back or ignore the whole situation. I made the choice, the conscious decision to make sure those young men and women over there fighting, some OTHER mothers children, knew that I love them and care about them just as if they WERE my own. And my children understand that. When I traveled to meet my Soldiers my one child accompanied me on the trip and came away with a much better understanding of what it means for the guys to sacrifice, and what supporting them actually means to them. It was a remarkable journey for us all.

But that is something that many will never know because they choose to sit back blindly and not take part, but rather just take for granted the Freedoms long won for them by the blood, sweat and tears of much better people who DO understand the meaning of sacrifice.

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sealpatriot
09/08/2007 at 9:31 am

Sorry liberal jarhead, but our president scored a 1207 in the SAT and got A’s in history classes which are the hardest classes to pass in college overall, so I doubt he’s stupid! Afterall, since he took the SAT prior to 1995, it could be used to estimate someone’s I.Q. and scoring a 1207 is like getting a 95-100 on an I.Q. which is in fact higher than many college professors, military officers, and his colleagues in capitol hill(i.e. Congress).

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sealpatriot
09/08/2007 at 9:36 am

“The so-called reconstruction is being used as a pipeline to channel money to their corporate sponsors.”

-You do know that this has been disproven a long time ago, right? It is now a statement with many words that have no content whatsoever and is just a smokescreen trick to hide the fact that many who take your stance aren’t too bright.

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sealpatriot
09/08/2007 at 10:00 am

Okay, so in the event any of you want to bring up the 8.8 billion dollars that are claimed to have disappeared. Just ought to point out the fact that there are 150 billion dollars for rebuilding the country that Iraq has that it hasn’t yet been able to spend on reconstruction. Any possibility it may have ended up with the rest of that money? Someone asked about the money for Iraq that seemed to have simply vanished on Bill Hemmer’s BYA(because you asked) on Fox News. So money for Iraq hasn’t disappeared, it just wasn’t spent, at least yet. Plus, I must point out as well that if contractor companies like Halliburton are profiting off of participating in Iraq’s reconstruction then maybe this would be evidence of Iraq being more promising than America and it’s anti-war crowd have lead(or mislead) themselves to believe. Maybe other contractors ought to join in and not just let these people do all the heavy lifting, Iraq’s infrastructure would be rebuilt a lot quicker and that would truly beef up the country’s economy and maybe the Dinar as well. Afterall, these companies can not just do this for free, they have to pay their workers and pay for travelfare to send these people to there destination plus protection.

However, that “if”(refering to company conspricay in Iraq) is a huge “IF”, because chances are, they are not profiting off of rebuilding the country of Iraq. As I had pointed out in the last statement of the prior paragraph, the money they are getting could have gone to getting manpower to the construction crews that are doing the ground work in Iraq who happen to be expensive, and happen to be civillians so you have to pay expensive mercenaries(this is where Halliburton comes in) to protect those civillian workers in addition to the U.S. armed services, and Iraqi forces. Fact for those who still choose to sip the kool-aid, this subject is finito and any words to support the false claim that we are there for profit are disproveable. They are words that may take up bandwidth but for a fact have no substance whatsoever.

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K
09/09/2007 at 7:25 pm

We don’t need a draft. We need a change in attitute. We need to go back to teaching patriotism in school. We also need to teach that military service is an honor and a responsibility not simply a means to a college scholarship. Unfortunately, considering the Army hasn’t even figured this out yet (based on their recruiting commercials) how can we expect the average high school student to understand this. (The Marines on the other hand understand- Their commerical is awesome.) As a teacher, I encourage all of my fellow teachers out there to infuse as much patriotism and positive images of military service as they can get away with into their instruction. Parents also need to insist that this is done. It’s the only real way to make a difference.

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Miss Ladybug
09/09/2007 at 8:22 pm

K~

As a new teacher, I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m certified EC-4, but I don’t have my own classroom yet. I’ve been looking for (and buying) children’s picture books to help support this. I’ve even started “reviewing” them on my blog, kind of as a resource for others. I’ve got a couple waiting in the wings – written, but waiting until the appropriate date to post. I refuse to abandon our public schools to the left…

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sue
09/10/2007 at 12:11 am

I agree that attitudes need to be changed, and our school systems would be a great place to start. Lets begin with our COLLEGE campuses where the liberals spread nothing but hatred and filth to our youth. (And no not all of them do it but it is the VAST majority.) But most of the guys who I know who are in the service, and I do ask every single guy I support, why they are there, are NOT there for the college money. That of course helps. But it is not the reason. They join out of a sense of loyalty and duty to our Country. A feeling of self sacrifice for the good of their families and for the rest of us. I have a 21 year old right now, who has been in the army for 4 years already. He did boot camp during his summer vacation between his junior and senior year in High School when all his friends were out partying. He was already taking college courses on HIS dime. I have another guy who joined at age 25, he too has been in 4 years now about to leave for a second tour in Iraq. He joined after he had gotten two BS degrees and a JD. I could go on, but why. My point is that there are many reasons why these men and women join, its not just for tuition money.

The main attitudes we need to change are the ones who are in control of our media who distort the truth as much as possible so that our military looks as bad as it possibly could, to serve a greedy political agenda. Lets all thank the Almighty that our service men and women are fighting to preserve their rights to publish propaganda. And the other one would be that of our Congress and Senate who’s defeatist attitudes are so beyond the pale. Just this morning Joe Biden said that he knows much better than General Petraeus what is needed over in Iraq. I sure hope the halls of Congress are wide enough to accommodate Senator Biden’s head which has swelled to accommodate the size of his mouth.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070909/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq

Miss Ladybug, you are going to be a wonderful teacher when you get your class. You will have the ability to mold and shape good citizenship attitudes in their beginning years when it is so vital. Good luck to you.

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