A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
In the military, it’s important to know your enemy and what they are up to. Prior to going into Iraq, I meticulously studied everything I could, open source and classified, about the Iraqi military, people, customs, and geography. The same principle was applied against the Taliban prior to going into Afghanistan. In life, it’s important to know the other side of politics and beliefs as well. If you don’t know the “enemy”, how can you successfully respond to their ignorance and psychobabble? The simple answer is to just arm yourself with facts. But, for Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW), you encourage subversion within the active military force as a way of winning.
In a recent mailing to its members, IVAW attempted to emboldened “the men and women of our armed forces to withdraw their support for the war.” Their reason for doing so is that “without the active support of military service members, this war cannot continue.” But, in their zeal to further their wacko agenda, they neglect a simple tenant of military service – Soldiers don’t have a say in which wars we fight! The people they need to be subverting are the members of Congress. Without the support of Congress, only then “this war cannot continue”. But, they’ll never get it because they are smart enough to know that we can’t just leave Iraq.
IVAW is basically telling Soldiers that it’s okay to get their fellow brothers and sisters killed by disobeying lawful orders in a combat zone. They want Soldiers to be unemployable, homeless, and broke. After all, once they are kicked out of the military on a dishonorable discharge as a Private without pay and benefits, what company in their right mind would hire them? Of course, this would also give them more ammo to fight the system when the already high number of homeless veterans soars to unbelievable heights.
…without people to drive the trucks, to man the checkpoints, and to go out on nightly raids, no war is possible. Of course, we don’t expect to be able to convince the entirety of our armed forces to go on strike, but what percentage of soldiers would need to stand up against this war before our leaders decide that they cannot continue? One percent? Five? We aim to find out.
And I aim to educate those troops who may be duped into believing IVAW’s efforts enough to actually act on them. You volunteered to join the Army. All military services have regulations against forcing people to join the military, even to avoid jail time. This country has been at war since October 2001!! We have been in Iraq since March 2003 and had a very decent idea we were going since around October 2002. Instead of ruining the rest of your life by acting on these idiots’ ideas, do your job to the best of your ability, ride out your enlistment, and get out with honor. Then, use your military service to trash the military, its Soldiers, its leaders, its operations, and the rest of our Government. Picket military bases and march in stupid parades. Use your free speech as an honorably discharged Soldier instead of leaving with a stain on your record. Just don’t expect me to join you.
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Anatomy of a Military Dating Scam
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Anatomy of a Military Dating Scam
For Rachel Green: I do believe that was a scam. Military men do not n
CG of 3rd Infantry Division Targeted in Nigerian Scams
Ladies, beware, Sgt Calvin Clerance is also Paul Graves, Sgt51 on MyDa
Leta
I suppose the “good” news is that those IVAW are no longer IN the military and aren’t “protecting” us from the enemy. I suppose part of the bad news is that for some of them we will have to pay benefits. Stinks!
I’m so thankful that the majority of our military personnel have the integrity and honor that they do and will not walk over the edge of the cliff like lemmings with the IWAV.
Totally disgusting. Well, worse than that but keeping it clean here.
IVAW
You’re wrong Leta. We’re both in the military and out. We’re EVERYWHERE, spreading messages of truth, peace, and justice.
Garett
Actually a large amount of our members are active duty,national guard and reserve. A lot of current service members are tired of going on more deployments while our politicians get their heads out of their asses and realize this isn’t about terrorists or national defense. Corporations and government are using the armed forces to achieve their ends while American soldiers and their families make the sacrifice, and hard working Americans pay for it with their tax money. If you call yourself patriots you might realize that sometimes you have to follow the ideals of soldiers like George Washington and the founding fathers and not blindly obey and trust your own rulers.
Army Sergeant
I don’t know that this is necessarily the purpose of IVAW. After all, I’m an active duty sergeant, and I haven’t been asked once to do anything illegal, nor would I. I’m not sure where precisely you grabbed that statement from, but it might not be representative.
Patriot
Leta, as our good friends from IVAW have said that’s actually not good news because there ARE active duty Soldiers that are members of IVAW.
Good to see that IVAW is out in force today. All quotes, as CJ said in the post, come directly from the most recent IVAW eNewsletter which I also get. If you do not read your own newsletters, you should look again at what you have gotten yourselves into – especially you Army Sergeant. They may not have asked you to do anything illegal but their stated “strategy is simple: organize the men and women of our armed forces to withdraw their support for the war.” [again, that came directly from their email] Be careful with whom you align yourself. You notice they do not say “former men and women.”
As CJ also said there is nothing wrong with any of you protesting with the smelly hippies from the sixties and today. Just keep in mind that pulling out prematurely is not a good tactic. If your dad had done that, you would not be here today.
And Garett, George Washington fought for freedom against a government that did not care about its people. Bush fought for freedom against a government that did not care about its people either. It just happened to be someone else’s freedom this time. Just because we support the current war, does not mean that we blindly obey anything. My stance is a well researched one built on experience and study. We have no problems on this site telling it like it is when the administration is wrong in our eyes.
However, the military is an environment unlike our civilian counterparts. People do not die if Joe Starbucks decides to disobey his boss and makes more coffee than he is supposed to. When we take the oath of enlistment or commission, we promise and pledge to obey the lawful orders of those appointed over us. And those that HAVE followed illegal orders (Abu Ghraib for one) have been punished and rightly so.
IVAW: justice = killing terrorists. IVAW does not want to do that.
Terri
I couldn’t have said it better myself Patriot. I fully agree with you and CJ on this subject. Thanks CJ for this informative post. A good portion of the time when I see someone from IVAW on television, I get sick hearing what they have to say. Sorry, but I just don’t buy their “supposed” patriotism, when they’re advocating for things like this article speaks about. Can you say…. setting those Soldiers up for failure (i.e. lots of problems with the military justice system). That tells me that their aim is to cause subversion and division among the ranks, instead of the cohesiveness that is necessary for our country’s Armed Forces.
SSgtJ
Hey, at first I thought, “Maybe now we will finally hear why we shouldn’t be in Iraq as expressed by the IVAW and their lot.” Then I read the posts. All they (the IVAW bloggers) posted were the same talking points from Harry (I hate Bush) Reid. Let’s see IVAW says it is about “truth, peace and justice” nothing there to add to the discussion. Just meaningless sound bites. Garrett says “it isn’t about terroist” and “it is just corporations and governments to achieve their ends”. Sounds like Jane (I hate the USA) Fonda all over again. Didn’t he get the word that Al Anbar Province is actually expelling these non-existant terrorist. And as for “Army Sergeant”, well, he just denyed everything but never even offered to explain what he does believe in.
I am open to dialogue, just seems like it should be logical. Hey, Rumsfield was right about shock and awe, it got us to Baghdad very very quickly. He was completely wrong about security once we took over the country. But HE IS GONE NOW. General Petraeous is right about security. It is clearly working in Al Anbar Province. Does the IVAW actually think we should pull out of Iraq today?
SNAFU
Subversion refers to an attempt to overthrow structures of authority, including the state. It is an overturning or uprooting. The word is present in all languages of Latin origin, originally applying to such diverse events as the military defeat of a city.
As early as the 14th century, it was being used in the English language with reference to laws, and in the 15th century came to be used with respect to the realm. The term has taken over from ‘sedition’ as the name for illicit rebellion, though the connotations of the two words are rather different, sedition suggesting overt attacks on institutions, subversion something much more surreptitious, such as eroding the basis of belief in the status quo or setting people against each other. Members of the IVAW beleive that our troops should take the next step. They want to influence them to break the law.
Obviously the active duty soldiers and veterans who are members of the IVAW may have been or currently are members of the armed forces but lack the moral courage to keep the Oath they made upon enlistment. As a current active duty soldier, I value Integrity above all else. A person is only as good as their word. It is hard for me to imagine the type of soldier who would be so selfish and spineless, as to turn his back on his fellow comrades when they are in need. “Thank goodess in 22 years of active duty military Service I have never run into one of you cowards.
Mirroring the same mentality of the IVAW, What You are doing would be similar to the World Trade Center collapsing, going to New York City and trying to undermine the efforts of the rescue workers telling the firemen, police, medics, and American Red Cross, that they don’t belong, it is way too dangerous, or convincing them it is a wasted effort. Compare our jobs, all we are, in a nutshell, is rescue workers. Except our jobs are to “rescue” those in need, around the world.
Snooper
IVAW…spawned by VVAW…left over hippies reliving their anti-Americanist drivel, funded and financed by Soros.
Soldier on and trounce ALL trolls.
Leta
Shame on me for not doing more research before commenting. When I’m wrong I’m wrong. Makes me SICK AT MY STOMACH that there are those still in the military who are, as SNAFU said, participating in subversion and allowed to do so. Disgusting, frightening, pathetic, etc. Thank heavens for Soldiers like CJ, SsgtJ, SNAFU, and thousands and thousands of other Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Sailors and Coasties.
I guess the t shirt I wear on occasion says more than I thought it did – “Fighting the Insurgency at Home.” Just frightening to know there are members of our Army Forces who would undermine their own. Saying more here would only serve to show my anger and disgust so I’ll leave it at that.
JD
I have recently returned from my second deployment to Iraq. I whole-heartedly support the efforts and message of Iraq Veterans Against the War. We need to end our illegal, immoral, and unjustified occupation of Iraq as soon as possible. That would be ASAP for those of you with a penchant for acronyms.
Semper Fidelis (no longer from Iraq)
CJ
So, you’re saying that you wholeheartedly agree with encouraging Soldiers to disobey lawful orders and put their fellow troops in more danger? Also, perhaps you could enlighten us (in your words) exactly what is “illegal, immoral, and unjustified” about our presence in Iraq. What’s so immoral about wanting freedom for a repressed people? What so illegal about a war authorized by Congress and now mandated by the UN? And what is unjustified about defending our country?
Choose your words carefully. We’re looking for YOUR thoughts, not the IVAW talking point memo!
sealpatriot
I support the soldiers who decide to follow orders all while setting aside their own personal beliefs. I think that is what defines a professional, along with honor as well. Those are two things that this country’s politicians will never understand, because they’ll never settle their differences and try to find a meaningful solution to our country’s domestic and foreign troubles.
JD
There is nothing immoral about wanting freedom for a repressed people. It is immoral to force “freedom” upon “repressed” people with the flash suppressor of a rifle or the tip of a bayonet. What is illegal is that Congress has never declared “war” on Iraq. The invasion of Iraq does not meet Constitutional qualifications for the use of US military forces. There is nothing unjustified about defending our country. We are not defending our country by occupying Iraq. We were not defending our country when we invaded Iraq. Iraq did not pose a threat to our country then, nor does it now.
CJ
JD, you people just don’t get it do you. Did you even pay attention to this post? Did you even READ it? This has to do with subversion!! It’s a very clear concept.
Please define for me what an “occupation” is because you IVAW morons just don’t get it. You go around with your “Winter Soldier” crap trying to convince the world that our military is forcing freedom upon “repressed” people “with the flash suppressor of a rifle or the tip of a bayonet.” Exactly when was the last time an American Soldier actually donned their bayonet in Iraq anyway? Perhaps you can elaborate. Our “occupation” of Iraq is not about forcing anything. As a matter of fact, we wouldn’t fire ONE round if the insurgents would just let us do our jobs and PEACEFULLY rebuild the country we destroyed getting rid of crackpot dictators bent on genocide.
Anxiously await your “educated” answers to these quite simple questions as well as proof of your “flash suppressor” and “bayonet” comments.
Army Sergeant
SSgtJ: Feel free to come over to my blog anytime, I explain a lot about why I positively believe in IVAW. I don’t think it’s polite to give a long rant on someone else’s blog.
I’ll note that “withdraw support” for the war can mean many things, and doesn’t have to include disobeying orders. Again, as I said, I’ve never been asked to do that.
Here’s one thing I will say. Yes, we’re getting more security with the surge. Anytime you put more boots on the ground, you’re going to have more security. But does anyone think this is longterm security? Does anyone think that real change has happened? The political goals are still not met, and are never going to be met, as long as they remain unrealistic.
We went to war in Iraq for the wrong reasons. It wasn’t about dictatorship, or freedom. There are a lot of people in the Sudan who could use some freedom right now. They’re not very popular, though. There are people in a lot of hotspots all over the world that are dying for freedom, quite literally. People who were dying in far greater numbers than in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. We didn’t go there, because our leadership had no interest in human rights. We went to Iraq for political reasons. It’s a politician’s war, and not a soldier’s war.
CJ
“I’ll note that “withdraw support” for the war can mean many things, and doesn’t have to include disobeying orders.”
You’re right! It’s doesn’t. But the problem is that the organization which you support WANTS Soldiers to disobey orders. IVAW openly emails active duty troops telling them to refuse deployment orders. It openly tells them to refuse combat training. YOU may be a great “Army Sergeant” but you still support a subversive organization. If you want to join an organization that is not subversive but advocates withdrawal, join IAVA. At least they don’t encourage troops to go AWOL or desert. You can say all you want here, Army Sergeant, but I am on the IVAW mailing list and get all their “bulletins”. Either you’re ignorant, blind, or support their efforts.
If you’ve been getting their email, then you HAVE been asked to refuse orders. I’ve quoted them here. Anyone can sign up for them. My gosh, wake up bro!!
Secondly, your circular argument about the Sudan holds no water. If you’re against the war in Iraq, then you’d be against the war in Sudan. So, why even bring it up. You don’t care about them just like you don’t care about the Iraqi people. It just makes no sense and does nothing for your argument. Are you advocating we go into the Sudan instead of Iraq?
Thom Folan
C.J. – You Sir have won this argument re: Subversives in IVAW.
No one likes this war . if you don’t want to fight this war then you can always get another profession, take off this great countr’ys military uniform, get separation papers (or better yet get court-martialled), join the Peace Corps, move to Canada or Mexico, sing Kumbaya My Lord, hold hands and conume cookies and milk, but just stop bemoaing your decision to defend America.
I am not talking about freedom of speech here. Didn’t every member of IVAW raise their right hand like I did many years ago and promise to defend the U.S. ?
Didn’t IVAW members solemnly swear to support & defend the Constitutionof the U.S. against ALL ENEMIES,
foreign and domestic and that they’d faithfully discharge those duties? If they made the wrong decision to join the military,they can always suck it up or they can quit. If they
quit, al-Qaeda wins . I urge members of IVAW to do their job , not complain and not to quit.
Didn’t these IVAW ladies and gentlemen raise their right hand when they joined the U.S. military and say like I did years ago ” so help me God” ?
Service Member
IVAW does not ask anyone to do anything they do not want to do. Under Army (and other branches) Regs there is a whole lot of legal resistance. I won’t do your homework for you and let you in on exactly what that is but it can be something as little as a sharing a book with your squad mates, something like Anthony Arnoves “Logic of Withdrawal” which explains how a withdrawal is not only nessasary for a future stable Iraq but also how the presence of an occupation only continues the fighting. On the other hand if someone feels it their moral duty to not participate we want to make sure we find them people who can serve as channels and support.
I am sure you have heard this before but; imagine if a foreign country invaded the US, set up bases and checkpoints. Suppose it started out with “Shock and Awe” in our largest town. Suppose your electricity stopped and your grandma died from the heat. Suppose you got shot at when some soldier waved hello to you and then shot you, because you didn’t know the hello wave means stop in their country. Would you proud soldiers not fight back?
I was activated for 9/11. I didn’t get even a two week notice from my unit , just had to be ready when the shit hit the fan that day. I did my duty. I know the difference between that day and the clean-up and between what is happening in Iraq. You can’t compare asking soldiers to think twice about Iraq to asking people not to clean-up Manhattan. What you can compare is those workers being told the air is safe and not being given proper masks and how we went to war with the Army we had, no armor plating, flak jackets, old vehicles, and not the Army we want. Seeing that there was such a rush to get those weapons of mass destruction and those folks that attacked us on 9/11.
I live in NYC now. I don’t want another attack. That is one reason why I whole heartedly support ending this war. The occupation of Iraq is adding fuel to the fire of hatred. It has Americans saying we should just nuke the place. If i remember correctly we are there to liberate the Iraqi’s right? So why do our countrymen want to nuke them and turn Iraq into a parking lot?
It has people all over the world looking at the US like bullies. Everyone is ok with swings being taken at bullies. That is not a place I am comfortable with this country being in.
As soldiers we do have a duty to do what is right. After WW2 we saw what happens when soldiers and a country blindly follow their leader. I joined the military to make sure that kind of stuff never happens.
You are right, I raised my hand to protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.
Did you? if IVAW is wrong, I honestly want to know at what point does it become a soldiers duty to question policy?
IVAW is NOT a pacafist organization or a anti ALL war organization. Overall I think everyone agrees however that we believe in fighting just wars. There are many members that are still in the military and will stay in. There are many who will never lift a weapon again. Army Sergeants comparison of Darfur is correct. There are many, many, many countries with ruthless dictators. Instead of sending in troops we too often support the dictators. Thats how we got Saddam in the first place. As a person who raised my hand against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC I absolutely call for an end to our country supporting human rights abusers, dictators who steal their countries resources, rulers who exploit their citizenry and monarchs who rule with an iron fist. Maybe if our government actually stood for what is right and stopped its own corruption we could be a military that fights for freedom instead of profit.
I for one am tired of seeing our military being sent in to clean up the messes of our politicians.
Service Member
CJ said
“As a matter of fact, we wouldn’t fire ONE round if the insurgents would just let us do our jobs and PEACEFULLY rebuild the country we destroyed getting rid of crackpot dictators bent on genocide.”
I am sure the Brit’s felt the same way in the Revolutionary War. It wasn’t up to them however to build the America’s. it was up to us. No country is ok with having another dictate how they will be rebuilt.
No countryman would be ok with letting the same people rebuild them that destroyed them to get rid one one louse that that same country supported 20 years earlier. I think if you were an Iraqi you would be fighting back too.
Christopher S Taylor
I am a 10 year combat veteran, and I have made the choice to not re-enlist. I have a laundry list of reasons, but the first is this war in Iraq. I am baffled how the American people got confused between 9/11, Al Qaeda and other terrorists, and Iraq. I watched the 2004 election from Iraq and couldn’t believe what I was seeing; there was no correlation between what was coming out of Washington DC and what was happening in the sandbox, of course the people ate it all up.
When I got home I was beat up, disheartened, and demoralized and I made the choice to honor my contract and finish out my last three years no matter what that meant. I could console myself with the fact that even if I was redeployed: 1. Maybe it would be to Afghanistan, where I personally feel all of our efforts should be, 2. as an NCO I would die trying to ensure my men make it home with their fingers and toes. I’m a simple guy, I don’t need much to make me happy, 3. as a professional, I’ll see to it that the mission is accomplished, again. But that’s just me.
I WILL NOT bash on the IVAW or anyone else speaking out against Iraq, even if they are crack-heads, just as I WILL NOT bash on anyone wearing a uniform, or ever wore a uniform. In both cases, these people show more fortitude and sack than the rest of these ‘do-nothings’ infesting my once-beloved country.
So my real point is this: If the constitution is the binding law of the land, and it states that any contract ‘we’ enter into then becomes binding law (Like the UN Charter), and we have violated that charter, then wouldn’t any order by the Commander and Chief relating to this conflict be unlawful? I just wonder because a lot of you say outright that soldiers refusing redeployment are disobeying lawful orders, making them sound like spineless dirtbags when this might not be the case. This is a question I pose to all of you in the hopes that you will revisit the constitution, and then revisit the UN charter, and then revisit our actions pertaining to this matter. I am no expert in law, I do not expect a dissertation on international law, I just hope whoever reads this does a little research and learns from it, that’s all I ask from people.
Thank you for your time.